WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Disaster Awareness & CERT => Topic started by: Wrightwood on Dec 25, 07, 03:51:14 PM
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LA County Air 5 was dispatched along with SB County Fire & LA County Fire for victims into the water through the ice.
At least 1 body was recovered in the incident.
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We drove by Jackson Lake a little after noon today and couldn't believe all the people out on the ice. I took notice and did not see any "Danger thin ice" signs. I'm not surprised some fell thru the ice.
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I spoke with a Sheriff Deputy at Jackson Lake at about 4:30pm. He said they had pulled one guy out and airlifted him to a hospital and were still working on him at that time.
The deputy also told me that he believed the victim who was pulled out was actually a person who had gone in to save another victim who was rescued by those who tried to help.
I was at the lake before the actual fire dept. rescuers got there and it was complete chaos. Cars were all over the road to the point it was impassible. Every holiday weekend it is a complete zoo at Jackson Lake. Last year on one of the holidays I witnessed at least 300 people on the ice. On that occasion I went home and called 911 and the Sheriff came up and cleared the lake.
As for signs... the USFS put up signs after another person had fallen through the ice. As I recall they installed several signs along the road side and on the parking lot area warning of thin ice in both english and spanish. When I looked for the signs today I did not see any. They were probably all vandalized or stolen.
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Thanks Elk but we did hear a radio dispatch for the Coroner. I hope that's wrong.
We also heard that others had gone in to rescue the 1st victim.
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IAs for signs... the USFS put up signs after another person had fallen through the ice. As I recall they installed several signs along the road side and on the parking lot area warning of thin ice in both english and spanish. When I looked for the signs today I did not see any. They were probably all vandalized or stolen.
This happens all the time. People think if they pull the signs down, then they don't have to follow the rules. "Sign, what sign? I didn't see it..." I've had mountain bikers and atver's tear down wilderness boundary signs, sledders tear down 4' by 8' signs in bold red (both english and spanish) saying "NO SLEDDING", we even had an interpretive sign torn out of a rock wall (they must have used a vehicle, I don't see how it could have been done by hand). It gets REALLY old having to replace signs over and over again.
And what ever happened to (not so) common sense? Who would go out on thin ice?
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During our patrols on Saturday, Sunday and Monday people were walking on the ice. On Sunday a person fell through but was able to get themselves out.
Unfortunately, we can not tell a person that they have to get off the ice. The Forest Service can be sued if someone slips and falls while trying to comply with us giving such orders. It is forest land and they walk on thin ice if they want to. That was drilled into us when we were going through our USFS training class. It was reemphasized to me while patrolling with REC-34 and we encountered the situation on Saturday.
We can only warn them about the dangers and scare them by telling them of the number of those who have fallen through the ice so far this year and that rescue is a long way out. That usually works.
Any removal of individuals from the ice by Sheriff Deputies would only be due to a working incident and the public causing interference.
When patrolling and pulling up in a USFS rig, most people will heed our warnings. Once we pull away, they get back on the ice. Even with the USFS Volunteers and the paid USFS personnel making Jackson a regular stop, we can't be there all the time. I'm sure there will be plenty of more incidents.
The USFS did install new signage about the dangers of thin ice in both English and Spanish. Unfortunately, as of last Saturday, it appears that the only one left is on the beach side of the lake. The signs don't say you can't walk on the ice, they only warn of the danger.
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RobertW it's my understanding that the final waring sign was gone late yesterday afternoon.
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RobertW it's my understanding that the final waring sign was gone late yesterday afternoon.
I find it funny that people would even need signs to tell them that walking on thin ice is very dangerous. You can look at the ice and see that it isn't thick enough to support your weight. As k9lvr mentioned, what ever happened to "common sense"?
But serving as a Volunteer over this past year I've come to realize that most of the public is not aware of the dangers the forest presents. They tend to think of it more like "Disneyland" where everything is controlled and nothing can go wrong.
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I had a ham radio call (from a forum member) that predicted that we would have an ice rescue yesterday. He was up walking his dog at Jackson Lake and couldn't believe that 20 people would be out on the melting ice. He was off by one day.
Common sense does not enter into the picture by anyone who wanders out on thin ice, in relatively warm weather and in the Los Angeles basin.
It's a shame that (at least) one person would no longer be sharing Christmas night with loved ones.
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Unfortunately ALL USFS personnel in the area were off today and this was the one day the Volunteers weren't out there patrolling. Sadly we have one Volunteer beating himself up over this because he feels he may have been able to prevent it if, after three straight days of patrolling, he hadn't taken this one day off to spend with his wife and get some things done around the cabin.
People have to take responsibility for their actions. The Forest Service isn't always going to be there to prevent people from doing harm to themselves in the forest.
It is truly sad and my heart goes out to the families. I'm just afraid this won't be the last time this happens this winter.
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The Los Angeles Times:
LOS ANGELES COUNTY
Man who fell into lake is hospitalized
A man who fell through thin ice in an area of the Angeles National Forest near Palmdale was in critical condition at a local hospital Tuesday night, sheriff's officials said.
A special emergency unit of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department was called to Jackson Lake about 3 p.m., after three people had fallen into the icy waters while tubing, said Sgt. Josie Woolum, a sheriff's spokeswoman.
Two of the people were rescued by bystanders before the unit arrived, and the third man was rescued by sheriff's divers who broke through the ice to search for him.
He was taken to Desert Valley Hospital in Victorville, she said.
Vivian Lin, 27, of San Gabriel was driving through the forest with her family when they stopped by the frozen lake to take photos and noticed the rescue effort.
"Somebody on the other side of the river tied a rope to themselves and jumped in and tried to find [the man], but couldn't," Lin said.
Woolum said people should always exercise caution in thin-ice situations.
"A lot of people who aren't familiar with certain areas are not as readily prepared for undercurrents or the freezing temperatures," she said.
"They don't have knowledge of how thick or sturdy the ice is."
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RobertW it's my understanding that the final waring sign was gone late yesterday afternoon.
When I went by this morning I stopped to look for the warning signs. I saw at least 2 on the road side of the lake and 2 more along the parking area.
While small they do warn of thin ice in both spanish and english
My concern is that someone else is going to drive by today and see the all of the sleds, innertubes and saucers left out on the ice an try to go out and retrieve them. This will be a costly mistake for anyone so foolish.
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Unfortunately ALL USFS personnel in the area were off today and this was the one day the Volunteers weren't out there patrolling. Sadly we have one Volunteer beating himself up over this because he feels he may have been able to prevent it if, after three straight days of patrolling, he hadn't taken this one day off to spend with his wife and get some things done around the cabin.
People have to take responsibility for their actions. The Forest Service isn't always going to be there to prevent people from doing harm to themselves in the forest.
It is truly sad and my heart goes out to the families. I'm just afraid this won't be the last time this happens this winter.
Nope...it's been an ongoing problem since the early seventies and before. My personal best was six through the ice at one time and zero ice rescue gear and Sheriff's Air Five was off for the day. What's amazing at that time was after our six hypothermia patients were transported to the hospital, another fifty folks (with their kids) were back on the ice. Jeff Bradford and I just drove back to quarters with a sense of wonder and amazement at people's thinking processes.
Even if a patrol had been sitting in the parking lot, there is no stopping these folks.... even if you did speak the language they will go out on the ice. Like trying to herd cats.
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Unfortunately ALL USFS personnel in the area were off today and this was the one day the Volunteers weren't out there patrolling.
Of the hundreds of parked cars I passed between Big Pines and Mile High I only counted 6 displaying Adventure passes. The Forest Service wanted the Adventure Passes they should have been out making sure folks were purchasing the passes on one of the biggest days of the year for people visiting the forest. Although I'm not sure where they'd purchase the passes.. perhaps the mini mart?
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Is there any way to melt the ice quickly? It isn't thick, but I know we don't want to add salt as it would harm the fish and environment.
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Although I'm not sure where they'd purchase the passes.. perhaps the mini mart?
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/ap/vendors.php?city2=Wrightwood&submit=Submit (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/ap/vendors.php?city2=Wrightwood&submit=Submit)
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What Ive seen is people at first check out the ice close to shore then will venture further and further out thinking all is well. Also people will flock together instead of spreading themselves out.
One time a dog went through the ice and the owner went running out after it. It was a head-shaker that the two of them didnt go in where the owner pulled out the dog.
Again, the fact that there were no paid rangers around only shows what the current administration thinks about all of our national parks and their visitors. I truly think they would rather have some big corporation like Disney or Marriott lease out and run the parks.
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Is there any way to melt the ice quickly? It isn't thick, but I know we don't want to add salt as it would harm the fish and environment.
circulate the water? Build a fence? Drain the lake? Or put up more signs and save yourself by staying off the ice?
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Although I'm not sure where they'd purchase the passes.. perhaps the mini mart?
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/ap/vendors.php?city2=Wrightwood&submit=Submit (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/ap/vendors.php?city2=Wrightwood&submit=Submit)
My point was probably not all were open xmas day. It would be wise to hand out information regarding the dangers of thin ice to anyone purchasing an Adventure pass. The info alone would be worth $5..
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Let's be proactive here. How about during the winter months when a family purchases the "Forest Adventure Pass" they get twelve free orange life vest rentals!
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The Daily Press is wondering if signs have been posted at the lake warning people to stay off the ice in the past. If anyone has information or would like to comment on the record about the tragic death of the man who lost his life saving children from the ice, please contact the Daily Press at 951-6233.
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Unfortunately ALL USFS personnel in the area were off today and this was the one day the Volunteers weren't out there patrolling.
Of the hundreds of parked cars I passed between Big Pines and Mile High I only counted 6 displaying Adventure passes. The Forest Service wanted the Adventure Passes they should have been out making sure folks were purchasing the passes on one of the biggest days of the year for people visiting the forest. Although I'm not sure where they'd purchase the passes.. perhaps the mini mart?
When we are out writing NNCs for Adventure Pass Violations we instruct the public that they can be obtained in town or at the VIS centers. Since Big Pines was closed Sun - Tues we told them that then can either drive into town or let us go ahead and write the NNC (Notice of Non Compliance). With the NNC in hand they can go ahead and play for the day and just mail in their $5.00 when they get home. In every case they thanked me.
Nobody in the USFS was patrolling the area on Christmas Day. Even Volunteers need a day off. But even so, hundreds of NNC were written over the past two weekends.
Things will be different over New Years as several of us have taken the time off to spend all week out there patrolling.
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I remember as a kid living in Buffalo, NY (Grand Island, actually) the frozen rivers/lake surrounding Niagara Falls. The ice was at least six feet thick, and I wouldn't have waked on that! So are these people just STUPID who are walking on this ice? I just don't understand what they could be thinking.
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I hope someone with knowledge of this will call the provided number and this post doesn't get lost in the thread. I would call - but I have no firsthand knowledge since I've never stopped at the lake.
The Daily Press is wondering if signs have been posted at the lake warning people to stay off the ice in the past. If anyone has information or would like to comment on the record about the tragic death of the man who lost his life saving children from the ice, please contact the Daily Press at 951-6233.
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Someone should manage the volunteers so they are in the forest on the days they are most needed. Xmas day is one of those days. However, Frankly I don't think we can save everyone. Perhaps what we really need is more thin ice opportunities for stupid people to take themselves out of the gene pool.
I'm all for installing more signs (in English) and allowing nature take it's course.
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The Daily Press is wondering if signs have been posted at the lake warning people to stay off the ice in the past. If anyone has information or would like to comment on the record about the tragic death of the man who lost his life saving children from the ice, please contact the Daily Press at 951-6233.
Like this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/thinice.jpg)
From this older topic: http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,7977.0.html (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,7977.0.html)
Gretchen, it might be fun for you to grab one of your photographers and go there some day, to watch the people ignore signs, and play on (obviously) thin ice
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The Daily Press is wondering if signs have been posted at the lake warning people to stay off the ice in the past. If anyone has information or would like to comment on the record about the tragic death of the man who lost his life saving children from the ice, please contact the Daily Press at 951-6233.
Signs are posted every year. It doesn't help. Signs are up now, and it didn't help.
The need for an Adventure Pass is posted all over the Forest and in every campground, yet most people we talk to have no idea what we're talking about when we confront them on the lack of not having an Adventure Pass.
PEOPLE DON'T READ SIGNS.
Unfortunately, if they see one person on the ice they figure it is safe for them to go out on it as well.
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HI BOB,
Our photographer is there now. We're trying to determine how much of a problem this is at the lake. Thanks somuch for your reply.
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Gretchen did someone die yesterday in Jackson Lake?
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HI BOB,
Our photographer is there now. We're trying to determine how much of a problem this is at the lake. Thanks so much for your reply.
Excellent.. There's many problems this time of year:
(1) People on thin ice (literally speaking)
(2) People with their little low-rider Honda Civics, that end up in a guardrail, or on their roof because they have no traction on ice/snow (driven by people who probably have never driven on the snow/ice before)
(3) People who stop right in the middle of the road (blocking it for everyone, and creating a safety hazard) to put on their chains, instead of pulling over.
I'll bet there's plenty of material for numerous stories here for you. Anyone else want to add to the list?
:)
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Gretchen did someone die yesterday in Jackson Lake?
I knew about the LA guy "Airlifted" out, but apparently, someone did die, according to the Daily Press: http://www.vvdailypress.com/news/claridad_4228___article.html/coroner_ice.html (http://www.vvdailypress.com/news/claridad_4228___article.html/coroner_ice.html)
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ALL VALID ISSUES. We welcome anyone that wants to comment on the record to call the Daily Press at 951-6233. The story has been posted to vvdailypress.com and updates will contiue to be posted throughout the day.
Thank you.
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4. Having 200+ people sledding on your property despite numerous signs, and despite our asking them to leave. We know that we are at risk for a lawsuit if someone is injured sledding, and we are also very concerned about someone becoming violent with us when we ask them to leave. We consciously remain very polite but firm, but we are constantly harassed with bad language and namecalling. Snow days are a nightmare for us--we literally cannot leave our property on Highway 2, and we don't consider it safe to leave because of the trespassing. Our property is used as an outhouse for "visitors" and we have people walking up and looking into our windows. We have called the police on numerous occasions, but never have a response. We are literally captives in our home on those days. Fortunately there has never been violence, nor lawsuits against us but we are worried for that day. When we had a fence, they tore it down. They also pretend not to speak English (nearly all are spanish-speakers), and they leave a multitude of garbage and used toilet paper all over our property (we have 8 acres right on the main highway). What do you think about that, Daily News? Immigrant rights groups? This happens every year, at least 3-10 times--depending on the amount of snow, and the day it falls, and I know we are far from alone.
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Again, in order for your story to be heard, you must call us at 951-6233. We're happy to bring issues to the surface but need you to be the one to go on the record and present them to our readers.
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I walk my dog around the lake several times a week and have noticed the posted signs in english and spanish. The signs also have a universal symbol that looks like broken ice with a red slash through it.
It's rediculous that people ignore the signs and wal on the ice... Some of it is just ignorance and lak of education, like walking on snow on top of ice, not knowing that snow on top of ice actually makes it ice weaker. Most of it is just stupitiy like people that walk and stand near obvious weak spot like cracks that go across the entire lake and are seeping water.
It's most unfortunate that the man that died was saving an irresponsible parent's children. It's apalling to think that people may be taking signs down. This leaves no warning for people that actually care enough about themselves and their families to read signs.
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4. Having 200+ people sledding on your property despite numerous signs, and despite our asking them to leave. We know that we are at risk for a lawsuit if someone is injured sledding, and we are also very concerned about someone becoming violent with us when we ask them to leave. We consciously remain very polite but firm, but we are constantly harassed with bad language and namecalling. Snow days are a nightmare for us--we literally cannot leave our property on Highway 2, and we don't consider it safe to leave because of the trespassing. Our property is used as an outhouse for "visitors" and we have people walking up and looking into our windows. We have called the police on numerous occasions, but never have a response. We are literally captives in our home on those days. Fortunately there has never been violence, nor lawsuits against us but we are worried for that day. When we had a fence, they tore it down. They also pretend not to speak English (nearly all are spanish-speakers), and they leave a multitude of garbage and used toilet paper all over our property (we have 8 acres right on the main highway). What do you think about that, Daily News? Immigrant rights groups? This happens every year, at least 3-10 times--depending on the amount of snow, and the day it falls, and I know we are far from alone.
A fence didn't keep them out of the U.S. I highly doubt a fence would keep them off your properity. You're dealing with it better then I would, I'm pretty sure I'd push the issue to the point law enforcement had no choice but to respond. I'd probably hand out maps in Spanish giving directions to Jackson Lake.
If anyone wants to be mis quoted or quoted out of context call the daily press at 951-6233. If you just want your story to be heard you can always just keep posting in the forum.
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Gretchen:
If you will read this forum thread, you will get a good feel for what snow days are like in Wrightwood.
Ken
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,1821.0.html
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Someone should manage the volunteers so they are in the forest on the days they are most needed. Xmas day is one of those days.
It's always been my philosophy not to complain about something someone does that I can't or won't do, in particular when they volunteer their valuable personal time away from their families or other things that they might rather be doing and I'm sitting in the comfort of my own home. Maybe you should do the same.
If you sincerely want to get traction on this issue, instead of complaining about volunteers who are already giving of themselves and their time for the community and our local forest, maybe you could address these issues with you local congress people who allocate USFS funding.
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A fence didn't keep them out of the U.S. I highly doubt a fence would keep them off your properity.
That's just a stupid comment. There are plenty of Caucasian, Asian, and Black people that have ignored my fence. Besides there is no "fence" on the boarder and it won't keep them out. Especially not while people keep exploiting day laborers for cheap work.
I'd probably hand out maps in Spanish giving directions to Jackson Lake.
Giving directions to a public place is a good idea that works. Some people do give attitude but it's just nonsense and they'll move on because they don't want to be harassed.
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If it is true that humans are decendents from the animal kingdom, my bet is, we come from a very long line of lemmings.
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A fence didn't keep them out of the U.S. I highly doubt a fence would keep them off your properity.
That's just a stupid comment. There are plenty of Caucasian, Asian, and Black people that have ignored my fence. Besides there is no "fence" on the boarder and it won't keep them out. Especially not while people keep exploiting day laborers for cheap work.
That's just another stupid comment!!! When someone says they don't always speak English or they act like they don't speak English what nantionality do you think they're refering too? Caucasian, Asian, Black people or Mexicans?
you have a good location for a VALLARTA MARKET
sounds like you've got a problem,, you deal with it. I'm not volunteering.
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Europeans (Spanish)
Not all Spanish speakers are Mexicans. And not all of us illegally cross the border. I know you are the omnipotant skier bob, but you say some ignorant stuff.
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It's ridiculous that people ignore the signs and walk on the ice... Some of it is just ignorance and lack of education, like walking on snow on top of ice, not knowing that snow on top of ice actually makes it ice weaker.
Getting back on topic, ignorance (which is not stupidity) is it in a nutshell for most people that I see on the lake or in the Big Pines snow play areas which, by the way, include a large number of tourists or temporary students and residents from the Pacific Rim including Japan, Korea, and India/Pakistan. While Japan & Korea do have snow, I have the impression that most of these people are city folks who have not seen much in the way of mountain snow or live in temperate climates that do not have snow, just like many native So. Californians. I met a couple who grew up in Whittier, were in their late 30s or so, and who had only been up once before and that was a couple of weeks ago to bring the kids to see the snow.
Most people don't go out on the ice for the thrill of denying death, they go out for a new experience or to imitate people that they've seen on ice rinks on tv like at Rockefeller Center. As for the signs, I wish that they were a more prominent size (ok, and that they wouldn't disappear) because I think it's human nature driving up to a new, exciting experience to focus on the people having a 'good time' on the ice rather than surveying for signs when you drive up and no one is there. Last year, didn't CalTrans bring in one of those electric signs? Ultimately, as we've said, it's up to everyone to make their own best decisions and that includes all nationalities that have their kids sled in the direction of the highway, another safety issue.
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Or post a sign that says "Now Entering Arizona!"
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Getting back on topic, ignorance (which is not stupidity) is it in a nutshell for most people that I see on the lake
[/quote]
Stupid - adj. Lacking intelligence or common sense.
Ignorant - adj. Lacking knowledge or awareness in general.
I think common sense and general awareness go hand in hand. Humans (well some) are born with survival instincts that sense danger. Some people are stupid/ignorant. I honestly believe that some people can't process the fact that they are standing on ice that has the potential to break away causing them to fall into freezing water. So to the ones that ignore the signs I would just have to call them stupid. They were provided with the knowledge, (the signage) but lack the common sense to process it .... They is stupid! :-\
Alright, I am reading into this too much. 2000 years from now man will still be falling through ice..... Let them go in peace. :P
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There were bystanders that made the situation worse yesterday. The helecopter could not land on it's first attempt because people would not move their cars and were standing around in the way of lay responders that actually knew what they were doing. The time that it took for the second pass could've been the crucial in saving Mr. Claridad's life.
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Someone should manage the volunteers so they are in the forest on the days they are most needed. Xmas day is one of those days.
You have no clue how much dedication and time the Volunteers put in trying to make a difference in this forest. Sadly, the USFS Volunteer Patrol Group's Coordinator is taking this incident far too personally and isn't sleeping at night, feeling what if I had only gone out one more day... If you had any idea how much time the Volunteers put in between Saturday and Monday, you wouldn't make such a comment. Working all day on patrols is very mentally and physically exhausting.
We are able to accomplish a lot, but we can't prevent people from being stupid.
Pointing fingers at the Volunteers who give up their weekends and vacation days to help educate the public about the forest and it's dangers, or, for that matter, even the paid USFS employees for not being there to prevent this incident is absolutely WRONG!
So let's blame the USFS for this incident. Shame on the Volunteers for wanting to spend one day with their families.
One good thing will come out of this. Next week when we are telling people about the dangers of being on the thin ice, and strongly recommend that they don't go out on the ice, we'll be able to point to this incident as what might happen if they continue.
As "Wildman" stated, it happens every winter and there is nothing you can do about. Perhaps we should just close the forest during the winter. Maybe putting some Orange CalTrans fencing all the way around the lake thus keeping people out would help. No thanks, I like the forest in the winter and the way the lake looks without orange fencing.
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I think Skier Bob is a troll.
D. No Trolling.
What is a troll? It's a person who posts something which is bound to stir people up and then sits back and watches as dozens of people jump in and start arguing. Sometimes trolls get their friends to join in or post under different names. Generally they will do anything it takes to get attention. If you see a message like this, please try and refrain from replying to it - it may well be deleted anyway.
I know you are the omnipotant skier bob, but you say some ignorant stuff.
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As JJ Walker would say DYNO-MITE! Just kidding that would kill the fish also...
One could go out there with a dry suit and an ice saw and breaker but that is a lot of work.
I do not like to kid about such a matter but the volunteers can't be expected to give up all their time. Life sometimes gets in the way of volunteering.
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First of all I am very sad & disappointed to read the finger pointing that is going on here. The volunteers that are working the Big Pines Recreation area are an incredible group of folks. They are good at what they do & they are very passionate about their local forest. I would like to see these very same people doing the finger pointing get off of their butts & donate their time free charge... use their own gas... pay for their own uniforms... I could go on & on but hopefully they get the picture! Chatty Cathy you just might be right about trolling ;)
I have experienced these issues that happen every year first hand. It is continuous... there is nothing that anyone can do that will combat this problem. In regards to "people just don't read signs". My comeback has always been: "Put up some signs that read: FREE BEER!" They will come in by the hundreds to collect their free beer!!!
I do not know the reason when it snows in Southern California that people actually think they are invincible.... on thin ice??? Invincible with a four wheel drive or a two wheel drive with all terrain tires??? I believe we will never know why. Also why do they leave their brains at home when they come to the forest???
I have always felt that the parents or guardians of the minors on the ice should be cited for child abuse & neglect. For the youngsters do not always know right from wrong or safe from dangerous. It is a parent's responsibility to teach them. In the majority of cases with families going out on thin ice... they are setting the stage for their children to grow up & repeat history when they grow up & have families. The same goes for families that think it is fun to feed bears or other wild animals. The consequences can be disasterous but if they are not harmed it will just happen over & over again with future generations.
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Robert W and other volunteers
First know that 99% of us cannot say enough good things about all the hard work you put in, and dedication you have to the forest. Your service to all of us that live here, and to those that don't is very truly appreciated! You cannot be everywhere at all times, and unfortunately people chose the holiday to go out to an environment they are not familiar with, and exercise very poor judgement. And in this case, someone attempting to help, again probably not understanding conditions, lost his life. I hope your grieving member, once he gets past the loss of this person, will think about all the others you have potentially saved from other bad situations simply because your program exists.
The signs have been there for over a year, I know because I see them when we take our dog to Jackson Lake. We recently adjusted the dog's running routine because we don't want him near the ice on the lake, thin or otherwise. But we can't make others stop and think and take those same precautions. People have been skidding on the ice on Jackson Lake every year for the over 25 years we have had a house here. Obviously no sign or warning will ever change that - but we can surely keep trying!
Please know you are appreciated, and try to just ignore those that feel a need to finger point when things go wrong.
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I applaud the efforts of the ANF Volunteers. Without their efforts there would be much more disorder and nonsense going on in the Forest. The forest service is the benefactor of the service by the volunteers. The forest service needs to be more pro-active.
It is my opinion that there is not nearly enough USFS law enforcement present. The USFS has its own law enforcement however limited the resources may be. I believe I was once told that there are 3 officers for the entire ANF.
The forest service needs to take more responsibility. Is informing people of the risks and protecting them not part of their responsibility in administering these lands?
JMO
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Is there any way to melt the ice quickly? It isn't thick, but I know we don't want to add salt as it would harm the fish and environment.
I like the idea of circulating the water.... A fountain or two in the middle of the lake... Just like in nature :D
Oh well, I was just tossing it out there for conversation and thought.
circulate the water? Build a fence? Drain the lake? Or put up more signs and save yourself by staying off the ice?
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I remember as a kid living in Buffalo, NY (Grand Island, actually) the frozen rivers/lake surrounding Niagara Falls. The ice was at least six feet thick, and I wouldn't have waked on that! So are these people just STUPID who are walking on this ice? I just don't understand what they could be thinking.
Most of them have little or no experience with ice other than at the nearby Ice Skating Rink. If they can walk on that, surely they can walk on this, too, or so they probably assume.
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To our volunteers -- PLEASE don't let what the troll said get you down! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the time and energy you all are taking to help protect us, and the sacrifices your families are making. And I feel so terrible that one of you (maybe more) is feeling guilty... what a terrible price to pay for such tremendous generosity.
And RobertW, I could not agree more that the poor man who died was a hero.
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If it is true that humans are decendents from the animal kingdom, my bet is, we come from a very long line of lemmings.
Gary, this is very witty. I hope I have your permission to repeat it (right off the cliff, of course).
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I think the signs could help more. I suggest a detailed warning sign in the main parking area. I think the generic signs are ignored because of being desensitized to warnings. If they see it at all, they may just think USFS is covering its own a**, but it's not that dangerous. Although many will ignore a more detailed sign, those who read it will be informed and will possibly be empowered to "patrol" while they are at the lake.
Kudos to USFS staff & volunteers for all that you do! :2thumbsup:
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A fence didn't keep them out of the U.S. I highly doubt a fence would keep them off your properity.
Like I said, the majority of them are Spanish speaking. Also, we do tell them that they can sled further up the road. Are you justifying in some way that it is okay to trespass onto our property past the signs and to treat us rudely when we ask them to leave. We are nice to these people--most leave without being asked twice. Rarely does anyone apologize, and I guarantee that every single one of them knows they are trespassing. There is no excuse for their behavior. Perhaps we can direct them to your house Tomas?
That's just a stupid comment. There are plenty of Caucasian, Asian, and Black people that have ignored my fence. Besides there is no "fence" on the boarder and it won't keep them out. Especially not while people keep exploiting day laborers for cheap work.
I'd probably hand out maps in Spanish giving directions to Jackson Lake.
Giving directions to a public place is a good idea that works. Some people do give attitude but it's just nonsense and they'll move on because they don't want to be harassed.
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Mountain Mom, you missed my point. My response to that quote was directed to skier bob's comment about the boarder. Not your issues with trespassers. They trespass at my house too, some are rude, but like you said most leave without being asked a second time. It's something I've just learned to deal with living right off of one of our main highways. Though I know I have not lived here very long.
My point is that many people are just rude and inconsiderate, the language they speak or ethnic background has nothing to do with the amount of respect they chose to give us. I've had confrontations with many english speaking snowplayers. I could be wrong and maybe they are latino and they are just light complected and learned enlgish profanities and insults. ::)
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I think the signs could help more. I suggest a detailed warning sign in the main parking area. I think the generic signs are ignored because of being desensitized to warnings. If they see it at all, they may just think USFS is covering its own a**, but it's not that dangerous. Although many will ignore a more detailed sign, those who read it will be informed and will possibly be empowered to "patrol" while they are at the lake.
Kudos to USFS staff & volunteers for all that you do! :2thumbsup:
I second those kudos. What may work is a memorial (like those along the roadside) honoring the fallen hero and expaining that he died trying to rescue 2 children. Lots of flowers and a cross and perhaps a large sign explaining what happened.
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What a total tragedy for this man's five children, to have their daddy die on Christmas day -- and most likely with them watching. Where were the parents of the children who fell through the ice? I agree that these parents should be charged with child endangerment. And why weren't they the ones to rescue their own children? Were they so far away that they couldn't get there in time? Those children should be taken away from them if that's the case. JMO
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Everyone should take a look at this Discovery Channel video so you'll be better prepared:
http://www.exn.ca/video/?Video=exn20020325-icewater.asx
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Jackson Lake appears to be so inviting. Check these two topics:
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,7977.0.html
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,3001.0.html
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Don't forget to check the date of the 1st posting:
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,7977.0.html
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This is extremely informative!
Everyone should take a look at this Discovery Channel video so you'll be better prepared:
http://www.exn.ca/video/?Video=exn20020325-icewater.asx
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Wrightwood,
Thanks for the Discovery Channel video. Now at least if I came upon that situation at Jackson, or any other lake I might at least have an idea of what to do, and what not to do.
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What may work is a memorial (like those along the roadside) honoring the fallen hero and expaining that he died trying to rescue 2 children. Lots of flowers and a cross and perhaps a large sign explaining what happened.
For the most part, memorials are prohibited on NFS land. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but the issue of memorials on forest land has come up before. It is very complicated.... I know that a person has to be dead for at least five years to have a building named after them.
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What may work is a memorial (like those along the roadside) honoring the fallen hero and explaining that he died trying to rescue 2 children. Lots of flowers and a cross and perhaps a large sign explaining what happened.
For the most part, memorials are prohibited on NFS land. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but the issue of memorials on forest land has come up before. It is very complicated.... I know that a person has to be dead for at least five years to have a building named after them.
I am not talking of a formal memorial. I am talking of the makeshift memorials like I see all the time driving on the road from here to Palmdale or from here to Cucamonga. The type the family usually put on the side of the road with a cross, flowers, personal items and a plaque. This is something that has become more prevalent over the past 10 years, as I think it is something done more in the Latin American countries than here.
In the past, I have looked at these roadside memorials as nuisances, but this would be a good place for one, as it would strike right at the heart of what is needed.
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I am not talking of a formal memorial. I am talking of the makeshift memorials like I see all the time driving on the road from here to Palmdale or from here to Cucamonga.
With all due respect, those are just another form of littering, in my opinion. Yes, you'll see them, but in the areas you mentioned, Caltrans or the County Road department (whoever has jurisdiction) does remove them, when they "get around to it".
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For the most part, memorials are prohibited on NFS land. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but the issue of memorials on forest land has come up before. It is very complicated.... I know that a person has to be dead for at least five years to have a building named after them.
I am not talking of a formal memorial. I am talking of the makeshift memorials like I see all the time driving on the road from here to Palmdale or from here to Cucamonga. The type the family usually put on the side of the road with a cross, flowers, personal items and a plaque. This is something that has become more prevalent over the past 10 years, as I think it is something done more in the Latin American countries than here.
In the past, I have looked at these roadside memorials as nuisances, but this would be a good place for one, as it would strike right at the heart of what is needed.
I believe that type of memorial is also included in what k9lvr was talking about. I have a feeling we'd be required to remove the flowers, cross, etc. if we came upon it on our patrols. No matter how sincere the intent they are considered eyesores by many.
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Maybe the parents (or whoever was in charge of them while visiting Jackson Lake) of the children Claridad went into rescue should be charged with his death.
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Maybe the parents (or whoever was in charge of them while visiting Jackson Lake) of the children Claridad went into rescue should be charged with his death.
If they can't do that, they should bring a wrongful death suit against the parents.
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Common now... let's be fair.
I'm sure those parents were horrified to see their children fall into the ice and I'm more then sure that they feel quite guilty enough about the man dying as a result of saving their children. They will have to live with that for their entire lives.
A lot of people in this world have NO CLUE about the dangers of snow/ice. I now reside in Florida (81 degrees today...I LOVE it!) and anyone who's lived here since a young age have no clue what snow/ice is really like. I could imagine any one of these people vacationing in Wrightwood and running out onto the iced over Jackson Lake. That would probably be the thrill of a lifetime to them.
Signs? Phooey.... I jumped out of a plane, KNOWING the danger (and signing TONS of documents stating that fact). Did it stop me? No way!
All I'm trying to say is .... this is life. We ALL die. That is one of the only things in life you will always be 100% sure of. Why sit here and take a "let's sue" attitude when, in the end, I think everyone involved has surely "learned their lesson" already when it comes to that lake. Do you honestly think that they will be doing it again?
I do agree with cutting out the article and showing it to those who get on the frozen lake. I'm sure most of them don't realize the true honest dangers of walking on "thin ice". Maybe someone should put up a board at the lake with all the names of people who have died from falling through the ice there. That may be a wake-up call to some.........
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For the most part, memorials are prohibited on NFS land. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but the issue of memorials on forest land has come up before. It is very complicated.... I know that a person has to be dead for at least five years to have a building named after them.
I am not talking of a formal memorial. I am talking of the makeshift memorials like I see all the time driving on the road from here to Palmdale or from here to Cucamonga. The type the family usually put on the side of the road with a cross, flowers, personal items and a plaque. This is something that has become more prevalent over the past 10 years, as I think it is something done more in the Latin American countries than here.
In the past, I have looked at these roadside memorials as nuisances, but this would be a good place for one, as it would strike right at the heart of what is needed.
I believe that type of memorial is also included in what k9lvr was talking about. I have a feeling we'd be required to remove the flowers, cross, etc. if we came upon it on our patrols. No matter how sincere the intent they are considered eyesores by many.
actually, you're not required to remove them at all.. I would suggest letting others deal with that part of it to avoid a conflict of interest... even though your intentions are good.
btw, good point wisher.. like Mammoth's Hot Creek site.. "so and so many people have dies here in teh last 20+ years"...extreme danger..
I also know that Big Bear has extensive singage and a CFR for a $500 fine for going onto lake ice. Would be interesting to see if that woudl work, but trying to get a CFR for that here might be a tall order.
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abc7 just did a live feed by the post office
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Channel 7 aired their report about this incident today (in the 4 o'clock hour.. not sure if they'll repeat it).
They had a reporter at Jackson Lake. Nothing really new was disclosed in the report, but they managed to get some excellent video. They had video of the "scene", and all the tubes and sleds left on the lake. While the news crew was there shooting the report, they stumbled across about 6 idiot teenagers, walking on the ice. One of them broke thru, up to above his ankles. The video of that, was pretty entertaining. It makes ones eyes roll.
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I just drove by Jackson Lake twice in the last hour . The first time I drove by I found a kid about 12 yrs old on the ice about 5 feet from the hole where the gentleman fell through and died. I took the liberty of stopping and informing the kid about the man who just fell in and died. I asked him if he thought it was a wise choice to be on the ice. I then got back in the truck to leave. As I was getting ready to leave I noticed the kid getting even closer to the previously broken area and I also saw his father talking to him from the otherside of the lake, also standing on the ice. I got out of the truck again after seeing the parent and informed the parent of the earlier tragedy. The parent had no real reply. I believe the parent had instructed the kid to get the innertube which had been on the ice since the incident. The kid proceded to go and get the innertube and get even closer to the weak area.
On behalf of all sane people I did inform the adult of my nominating him for "parent of the year".
I guess the kids life is not worth the extra $5. (The approx. cost of an innertube)
About 15-20 minutes later when I passed by again there was an entire family, 6-10 people on the ice on the opposite side. When I went to tell this family of the dangers a news crew from FOX 11 was there videoing them as they walked on the ice. When I told the family of the prior events they seemed not to believe me until I pointed out to them that a news crew was present and taping them. Then they seemed to believe me a little bit more!
You need a license to drive... but not to parent!
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...I got out of the truck again after seeing the parent and informed the parent of the earlier tragedy. The parent had no real reply.
Maybe they just don't understand what you're saying. Maybe its too complicated for them to comprehend. Next time this happens, just yell "Run Forest, Run!"
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Here is the ABC story and video:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=5858489
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I just drove by Jackson Lake twice in the last hour . The first time I drove by I found a kid about 12 yrs old on the ice about 5 feet from the hole where the gentleman fell through and died. I took the liberty of stopping and informing the kid about the man who just fell in and died. I asked him if he thought it was a wise choice to be on the ice. I then got back in the truck to leave. As I was getting ready to leave I noticed the kid getting even closer to the previously broken area and I also saw his father talking to him from the otherside of the lake, also standing on the ice. I got out of the truck again after seeing the parent and informed the parent of the earlier tragedy. The parent had no real reply. I believe the parent had instructed the kid to get the innertube which had been on the ice since the incident. The kid proceded to go and get the innertube and get even closer to the weak area.
On behalf of all sane people I did inform the adult of my nominating him for "parent of the year".
I guess the kids life is not worth the extra $5. (The approx. cost of an innertube)
About 15-20 minutes later when I passed by again there was an entire family, 6-10 people on the ice on the opposite side. When I went to tell this family of the dangers a news crew from FOX 11 was there videoing them as they walked on the ice. When I told the family of the prior events they seemed not to believe me until I pointed out to them that a news crew was present and taping them. Then they seemed to believe me a little bit more!
You need a license to drive... but not to parent!
Thats unbelievable!! No matter how many signs we put up or how many verbal warnings they might receive this will continue to happen. I hope these parents who are brave enough to walk on thin ice are brave enough to try and save their kids when they fall through!!
I was raised in Long Beach with no real knowledge of ice and/or snow and I would never even think to try something like this. Do people think this is a frozen lake in Michigan? Its just crazy to me..
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Thanks for posting the link BB.
And that story from Elk, like Sagebrush said, is unbelievable! I
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Why do some people fail to grasp the concept that it does not get cold enough here to freeze large bodies of water? ???
I'd never walk on a lake unless I was somewhere that's been below freezing for WEEKS. Even then, I'd stay close to the edges, just in case.
Has common sense gone the way of the dodo bird? ::)
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...commonsense isn't very common anymore...
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As long as the lake remains frozen we will continue to see Darwin's theory played out on the ice. Regardless if people read the signs or not. The signs need to be posted around the entire lake. I didn't see any signs when I stopped by last night.
With the forest service so quick to make 'forest closed' signs during extreme fire conditions,, they should get their butts out and install signs every 20ft around the lake. Until this is done, the USFS hasn't done all they can to avoid having another person fall through the ice. Additional signs will save a lives, they should be installed immediately.
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I counted the signs yesterday. They are green with white writing in English and Spanish and a silhouette in broken ice.They read Danger thin ice/ Peligro Helio Fino (this is actually a better translation than the old signs had.) The word "Danger" is highlighted in red. There are at least 7 that I saw. 3 in the parking lot and 4 on the highway side at common points of entry. Apparently that is not enough to keep people off the ice.
The signs are mounted to the post with cone like nuts that can't be removed with a normal wrench. But the sign post is locked in the sleeve with a regular nut and carriage bolt. There used to be more signs. It looks like people realized they could remove the the entire post from its sleeve and stole a few.
Channels 7 and 11 both aired reports yesterday regarding the death. Hopefully that helps keep people off the ice.
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Signs every 20 ft would be a total waste of money. They would be ripped out of the ground... used for sledding... used to aide in telling sheriffs, F.S. employees lies that they didn't see any signs. Although, once in awhile you get the visitor who will say "what signs??? I didn't see any signs" as they are standing right infront of the sign you mention to them. I happen to know first-hand from my experience in the Big Pines Recreation Area that "I didn't see any signs!" is one of the first things that come to a person's mind whom regularly tries to work the system (I am talking any & all systems). It is quite a pathetic excuse if you ask me.
What will people with all these "ideas" ask next??? We should hire fulltime babysitters to stand guard over the lake 24/7 in the wintertime? Oh, well how about just drain the lake? Fence all around the lake? They will just climb over the fence. If you make laws many people will break them... if you put up barriers people will get around them... if there is a will there is a way.
Give me a break... it is time that people start being accountable for their own actions. People die everyday, all day. It is their own choice to make sound or unsound judgements. I believe they should also be held accountable for their unsound judgements. The persons whom fall through the ice should be charged for their rescue efforts. Just like they have begun to do when skiiers & snowboarders go out of bounds at Mtn High. As I stated previously the parents should be cited & held accountable when minor children fall through or go out onto the thin ice.
We go through this every winter... hundreds of people on thin ice, people trespassing, people killing or seriously injuring themselves sledding or skiing into trees, cars, over cliffs... driving up without chains & crashing their vehicles... breaking through locked gates... illegal parking... hindering emergency vehicle traffic... leaving everything they brought to the forest littered everywhere... graffiti everywhere, etc. The impact the Angeles Forest has from such a huge population base is one key factor. How can 2 or 3 people manage 1,000's & 1,000's of knuckle heads? Every new winter we have an instant replay of the winter before.
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Signs every 20 ft would be a total waste of money. ...once in awhile you get the visitor who will say "what signs??? I didn't see any signs" as they are standing right infront of the sign you mention to them. ...in the Big Pines Recreation Area that "I didn't see any signs!" is one of the first things that come to a person's mind whom regularly tries to work the system.
"What do you mean I need an Adventure Pass? I didn't see any sign?"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Duh_5x7.jpg)
We need to put up signs around Jackson saying they can't park in the Lake!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/Truck_lake1.jpg)
How about signs every 20 ft. warning the people about the dangers of driving too fast on icy roads
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Overtheside.jpg)
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A sign every 20ft would be a waste...yet it wasnt a knucklehead who drown... :'(
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Signs every 20 ft would be a total waste of money. They would be ripped out of the ground... used for sledding... used to aide in telling sheriffs, F.S. employees lies that they didn't see any signs. Although, once in awhile you get the visitor who will say "what signs??? I didn't see any signs" as they are standing right infront of the sign you mention to them. I happen to know first-hand from my experience in the Big Pines Recreation Area that "I didn't see any signs!" is one of the first things that come to a person's mind whom regularly tries to work the system (I am talking any & all systems). It is quite a pathetic excuse if you ask me.
What will people with all these "ideas" ask next??? We should hire fulltime babysitters to stand guard over the lake 24/7 in the wintertime? Oh, well how about just drain the lake? Fence all around the lake? They will just climb over the fence. If you make laws many people will break them... if you put up barriers people will get around them... if there is a will there is a way.
Give me a break... it is time that people start being accountable for their own actions. People die everyday, all day. It is their own choice to make sound or unsound judgements. I believe they should also be held accountable for their unsound judgements. The persons whom fall through the ice should be charged for their rescue efforts. Just like they have begun to do when skiiers & snowboarders go out of bounds at Mtn High. As I stated previously the parents should be cited & held accountable when minor children fall through or go out onto the thin ice.
We go through this every winter... hundreds of people on thin ice, people trespassing, people killing or seriously injuring themselves sledding or skiing into trees, cars, over cliffs... driving up without chains & crashing their vehicles... breaking through locked gates... illegal parking... hindering emergency vehicle traffic... leaving everything they brought to the forest littered everywhere... graffiti everywhere, etc. The impact the Angeles Forest has from such a huge population base is one key factor. How can 2 or 3 people manage 1,000's & 1,000's of knuckle heads? Every new winter we have an instant replay of the winter before.
Yeah what she said!!! ;D I agree with that 100%!! A perfect example of people not willing to listen is Elk's story where he personally told a family of the tragedy that had just happened and they completely blew him off. No matter how many signs, no matter how many warnings people will do what they want to do. Unless we hire a year round lifeguard for the lake it will most definitely happen again!!! (Which by the way I dont want to pay for)!!
People do need to be held accountable for their actions and stop blaming lack of signs. The biggest tragedy in this case is that the man who died, died because of other peoples stupidity and thats really sad.
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Signs - Jackson Lake version
:aninotes:
And the sign said flat lander freaky people need to stay off the ice
But they grabbed all of their sled gear anyways and they headed out on to the ice
They played all day with out a care paying no attention to the signs that said beware
Someone fell through and when they finally pulled them out they were dead and blue
Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, CAN'T YOU READ THE SIGN.....
:aninotes:
The original old song redone here in 1990 by the band Tesla.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic90R6ZNaIM&feature=related
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:band: I love your remake there Hillbilly :2thumbsup:
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A sign every 20ft would be a waste...yet it wasnt a knucklehead who drown... :'(
It's not a waste if my tax dollars are paying USFS personal anyway, and it's absolutely not a waste if it saves just one life. Who knows,,, might even save the child of someone you.
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Jackson Lake is but "one" of the many places of beauty and joy up here. It is so sad to think that to some it has become a place of death and stupid behavior.
There is such good information on this forum, I only wish that some of the readers were the idiots being mentioned on the various topic sites. If the local newspapers would publish a section like the sections listing "fires" and or "police calls" and call it something like "Morons on the Mountain", then, maybe then, these people would see themselves the way we do. I'm not trying to judge them, but the truth of the matter is that there are those that may not realize the errors of their ways. They've been raised by dysfunctional parents and their actions are completely normal to them.
My deepest sympathies to the wife and family that lost her beloved husband and their father. May their grieving be brief and their joy be replenished and renewed by his memory.
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I have a little better understanding of Jackson Lake, as I checked it out today. The ice is VERY inviting. It looks very harmless, and the lake is small enough that it does not look like it could be very deep.
Obviously we know better now, but I can ALMOST understand how people walked on it without giving it much thought. As we all know, this type of situation DOES require much, much thought.
What I totally do not understand is that even when I told people about the death on Christmas day, people walked on the ice anyway. This is what I do not understand. One person I talked to who fishes there often told a similar story as Elk, that a father had his 5-6 yr old son walk on the ice to retrieve a sled, even after the father had been told that someone died five feet from where his son was standing. The guy still had his son continue onward to get the sled. ??????!!!!
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What Cathy didn't mention is that she was a volunteer Ham Radio Operator who was on Ice Watch today. The Wrightwood Communications Group (WCG) organized a group of Ham Radio Operators, for the long New Years weekend, to stand watch and warn people of the thin ice danger. The WCG also has monitoring taking place in case anyone does go in, so rescue crews can be dispatched ASAP.
Ham Radio Ice Watch volunteers are stationed at Jackson Lake from 9am to 5pm, 12-29-07 thru 1-1-08
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Thank You WCG! :2thumbsup:
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(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/24/665/5/21/88/2905521880029221877lyovZq_th.jpg)
I don't know how to make this image bigger and it's from my cell phone - but there were sled marks on the ice here.
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The ice watch seems to be working. There was no one on the ice each time I went by the lake today. This is the first time it's been clear in a couple of weeks. Good job everyone. :wave:
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Next on "Ice Watch!"
Ice Watch Guy aka David Iceselhoff: Hey, you should get off the ice, it's dangerous out there!
Stupid flatlander guy: Hey, Go bleep yourself ice watch guy!
(Suddenly there is a strong sound of cracking ice)
Stupid flatlander guy: Mommy....
Iceselhoff: Hey everyone, Crushed ice! Anyone need a drink?!
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Ham Radio Ice Watch were at Jackson Lake this morning at 08:30 hours.
The frequency being used for Ice Watch is:
Table Mountain 2 meter repeater at 145.2800 (-) PL 131.8
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With warmer weather the ice becomes less of a problem on Jackson Lake. The temps will begin dropping again as this week progresses.
The NWS is looking at what could possibly be the largest storm since February 2005 heading our way and impacting the southland between Thursday and Sunday.
Let's all remember...
"Ice, like other things in this world, only appears solid and immoblie"
(Randy Morgenson, Legendary High Sierra Backcountry National Parks Ranger, Yosemite, 1978)
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(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce1.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce2.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce4.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce5.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce7.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce8.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce9.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce10.jpg)
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce11.jpg)
All photos above taken 12-30-07
The one below was taken 12-29-07 by one of the volunteers on Ice Watch
(http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/kw6ww/IceWatch/JacksonLakeIce12.jpg)
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Nice shots and thanks Wrightwood,
I kinda like the one of the FS guy talking to the visitors.... ;D
That's the exact spot we had the stolen truck dumped into the lake last year.
Also a big thanks to the Wrightwood Disaster Communications Group Ham volunteer operators who gave up their busy Holiday time to keep watch and report activity. :2thumbsup:
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thanks for the great photos! Here's wishing everyone a safe, beautiful and fun Jackson Lake experience in 2008! Happy New Year all!
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Unfortunately ALL USFS personnel in the area were off today and this was the one day the Volunteers weren't out there patrolling.
Nobody in the USFS was patrolling the area on Christmas Day. Even Volunteers need a day off. But even so, hundreds of NNC were written over the past two weekends.
This is not true. I know for a fact E 37 was patrolling that area most of the day and warned those folks SEVERAL TIMES during the day to stay off of the ice. Like stated before as soon as you leave there right back on the ice. Heck as the divers were pulling the body out of the lake they still were on the ice!
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Unfortunately ALL USFS personnel in the area were off today and this was the one day the Volunteers weren't out there patrolling.
Nobody in the USFS was patrolling the area on Christmas Day. Even Volunteers need a day off. But even so, hundreds of NNC were written over the past two weekends.
This is not true. I know for a fact E 37 was patrolling that area most of the day and warned those folks SEVERAL TIMES during the day to stay off of the ice. Like stated before as soon as you leave there right back on the ice. Heck as the divers were pulling the body out of the lake they still were on the ice!
That is true. I was talking about the "Recreation" side of the USFS, not the "Fire" side. Most ANF stations are on duty 24/7. ANF Engines 37 and 38 (also currently out of Valyermo) do a great job patrolling the area when they are not involved in a working fire. In fact with "Recreation" positions not having been filled and with seasonal layoffs, they are the only ones out there patrolling certain parts of the Forest.
I understand that since Chris went into Law Enforcement in the Los Padres National Forest, even Patrol-38 is now being manned by an E-37 Engineer.
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This is not true. I know for a fact E 37 was patrolling that area most of the day and warned those folks SEVERAL TIMES during the day to stay off of the ice. Like stated before as soon as you leave there right back on the ice. Heck as the divers were pulling the body out of the lake they still were on the ice!
So it's accurate to say that while on patrol E 37's warnings on several occastions were nothing more then a knee jerk repsonse to a highly potential life threatening situation?
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So it's accurate to say that while on patrol E 37's warnings on several occastions were nothing more then a knee jerk repsonse to a highly potential life threatening situation?
??? ??? ???
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Skier Bob is a troll. Just ignore him.
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I don't know how to enlarge these pictures, but they enlarge if you click on them (I hope)
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/68/68/4/47/21/2583447210029221877JWxbFG_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2583447210029221877JWxbFG)
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/60/660/3/52/85/2719352850029221877ILmSux_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2719352850029221877ILmSux)
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/69/69/8/25/80/2183825800029221877WcKHtN_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2183825800029221877WcKHtN)
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/68/68/8/77/39/2712877390029221877UmIALa_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2712877390029221877UmIALa)
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...commonsense isn't very common anymore...
How can we teach our children common sense? We as good parents prevent our children from becoming hurt using all of the "childproofing" devices on the market. If we don't, we are either seen as bad parents or charged as "neglegent parents" should the unthinkable happen. Due to this, we have raised a society of heavily protected children who don't know that if you touch something like an electrical plug, it will shock you. So the heavily "proofed" kids now have lived their entire lives in a child proof world and have no idea of what (if anything) will cause them harm. So, they go around in total ignorance of potential dangers because anything that could cause harm to them has been "proofed". How can a person have any common sense at all when they haven't needed it so far?
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Skier Bob is a troll. Just ignore him.
I still have one vote just like you.
Have a nice day and don't forget to vote :)
Edited by moderator
Edited by SkierBob
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Ok it's time to take a deep breath and please no name calling.
SkierBob has been on the forum since 2002 so I wouldn't think he'd be considered a troll as he's posted plenty of relevant information over the years.
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Skier Bob likes to stir the pot - seemed like a troll-like action to me, but if you say he's not, then I'll drop it.
Ok it's time to take a deep breath and please no name calling.
SkierBob has been on the forum since 2002 so I wouldn't think he'd be considered a troll as he's posted plenty of relevant information over the years.
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Ok it's time to take a deep breath and please no name calling.
SkierBob has been on the forum since 2002 so I wouldn't think he'd be considered a troll as he's posted plenty of relevant information over the years.
Bob just seems to have a healthy disdain for the Forest Service. ;D Hey Bob, what's up with your Palmdale Cam?
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Bob just seems to have a healthy disdain for the Forest Service. ;D Hey Bob, what's up with your Palmdale Cam?
The still cam is now a streaming video at http://www.palmdalecam.com/still.html or 209.221.217.7 you've got to down load the Active-X file before viewing. The Controllable cam is sitting on the floor of my office. It's fully operational and If I spent less time on this forum and less time in Crowley Lake it would actually be working on the hill. I have no excuse, but appreciate you showing an enterest.
My weather station is off line because I've been forgetting to reset the PC since Dec 12th.
You can still check the wind speed by viewing http://www.palmdalecam.com/windturbine.htm or http://209.221.217.7:7052
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Thanks for the info. Your Palmdale Cam was the first controllable CAM online I ever used. I applaud you for the quality picture it would give. I just wondered why it wasn't operational. Thanks!
Nothing wrong with spending time on Crowley. Personally I always spend most of my time when in Bishop, on Lake Sabrina and South lake. Of course at this time of year that isn't possible. We also like fishing "the gorge".
I know, :offtopic:
Now back to the subject at hand...