WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Outdoors => Topic started by: RobertW on Jan 05, 10, 02:15:46 AM
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, RobertW. Do you know if the Adventure Pass requirement is going to continue into 2010? My current annual one is good through the end of June.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, RobertW. Do you know if the Adventure Pass requirement is going to continue into 2010? My current annual one is good through the end of June.
Yes, an Adventure Pass will be required throughout 2010.
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Thank's Bob for posting that in depth explanation. Many who frequent the Mtn. High website also linger here and complain on the Mtn. High website about the violation they get.
The fact is, that the FS signs are clearly posted when you enter the USFS recreational fee boundry area and are ignored. Most say they didn't see the sign and we explain were they are located and they just don't see the forest for the trees when arriving to recreate. Then there are those who park in front of the additional signs at key parking locations and ignore them.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/ADV1.jpg)
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As for the "I didn't see the sign" people....We have a situation here where we don't allow sledding in three different areas because of repeated serious injuries. In one area, people have to walk right by a huge NO SLEDDING sign to get to the illegal area. We get the "I didn't see the sign" comment all the time. I have been soooo tempted to photo copy pages from the optometrist portion of the yellow pages and when they make that statement, hand them one of the sheets and say, well, I suggest you call one of these guys....
:P :laugh:
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Robert W............
Thanks for the helpful info.
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As for the "I didn't see the sign" people....We have a situation here where we don't allow sledding in three different areas because of repeated serious injuries. In one area, people have to walk right by a huge NO SLEDDING sign to get to the illegal area. We get the "I didn't see the sign" comment all the time. I have been soooo tempted to photo copy pages from the optometrist portion of the yellow pages and when they make that statement, hand them one of the sheets and say, well, I suggest you call one of these guys....
:P :laugh:
On busy winter weekends I wish I had a string attached they can pull for the recording so we didn't have to keep repeating ourselves... :-\
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Counterpoint: I was writing an NNC last week in front of Mtn. High and a guy coming up Big Pines Hwy honked his horn, had a big smile on his face and gave me a big thumbs up as he turned the corner to go up Hwy 2.
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It's interesting that you bring this topic up, since I am in the middle of writing something about it for the museum. Perhaps much has changed in the USFS since I was in in the '70s. This has always been a pet peeve for me, this Adventure Pass program. Over the years that it has been used to supposedly increase the USFS budget for forest clean up, I found it interesting that District Rangers had no idea where the money went. Even Cy Morgan said that a few years ago,( made that comment in the local newspapers- Ww Mountaineer and San Bernardino Sun). The Adventure Pass has been so common place now that no one pays attention to the obvious: we pay taxes to be able to use U.S. taxpayer property...aka the National Forest.
I talked to a fellow ranger (now retired) four years ago, who told me that local residents wouldn't have to be required to pay for the pass. Perhaps that was an inticement for the adventure pass to be quickly accepted. It took a little over a year for locals to realize that they too have to pay,
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I would think Toolman would know where the money goes.
He should since he's out there writing NNC's.
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Only a small amount of research on my part located a summary of income and expenditures regarding the Adventure Pass simply by Googling "Adventure Pass", so I don't think it's a secret. You can start with the following link for the Angeles for 2008:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/rec-fee/accomplishments/2008/angeles.php
Note that there is a frame on the bottom right with contact info to speak to someone if you have more questions.
In your article, I hope you can break down something that I've been curious about for years. Since we don't have logging in our So. Calif. forests and therefore the income that that provides, does the federal government give such forests more monetary support or is the Adventure Pass an additional mechanism to provide for this loss of income?
A followup question would be, what is the algorithm the USDA uses to allocate monies to various forests and forest districts?
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When it comes to making money from the sale of public resources the Forest Service should be fired!
The Orion North timber sale of old growth trees in the Tongass in southeastern Alaska exemplifies the stupidity of the U.S. Forest Service timber sales. Fortunately, it was halted by a Federal Judge (12/7/09) :2thumbsup: , The project would have cost taxpayers close to $1.6 million while only generating $140,635 from the trees!
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We were told in training that the reason the Forest Service is part of the Department of Agriculture and not the Department of the Interior like the National Parks, is because the Department of Agriculture oversees "crops". When it comes to the National Forest, the crop is trees.
The four Southern California National Forests do not allow logging. Could this be the reason that they are the only four National Forests to require an Adventure Pass?
From the website:
"What many people do not realize is that their recreation activities in the National Forests are highly subsidized by American taxpayers. The Recreation Fee Demonstration Program is testing the willingness of those individuals who derive direct benefit from the forest to invest in their chosen activity, rather than asking all taxpayers--even those who would never visit a National Forest--to pay more.
The Adventure Pass part of the fee program asks individuals to play a direct and supportive role in caring for the lands they use and enjoy; to make a small investment to help ensure a bright future for the National Forests of coastal and southern California."
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I don't believe there's any logging on the Inyo either
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I don't believe there's any logging on the Inyo either
According to their website, logging and the thinning of trees is allowed by permit.
Did find out something I didn't know. Recreation Fees do exists in 5 areas of the Inyo National Forest.
- Wilderness Permit Reservation System
- Mono Basin National Forest Scenic Area
- Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest
- Horseshoe Meadows Equestrian Camp, Golden Trout & Cottonwood Lakes Walk-In Campgrounds
- Reds Meadow Area
They indicate that 95% of the Recreation Fees collected in the Inyo National Forest, come right back to the Inyo National Forest.
We were told 85% of the fees collected in the ANF come back to the ANF. Thus the Adventure Pass is better than a written citiation, where those monies go into the collective pool of the USFS, no matter where the citation was written.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/passes/
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"What many people do not realize is that their recreation activities in the National Forests are highly subsidized by American taxpayers. The Recreation Fee Demonstration Program is testing the willingness of those individuals who derive direct benefit from the forest to invest in their chosen activity, rather than asking all taxpayers--even those who would never visit a National Forest--to pay more.
Exactly why I don't understand the 'logic' of local free privilege. Even people in WW who are uninclined or unable to enjoy the trails (and bathrooms) in our little piece of paradise are subsidizing those of us who do use those amenities. And why should forests with very little human impact but perhaps large ecologic needs have to share their funds with areas of more and more urban 'runoff'???
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if this is true Toolman needs to write those NNC's a bit slower
This means that Congress has built-in a 4% "federal government tax increase" to be applied every year until, sooner rather than later, all the newly collected fees end up in the coffers of the federal government. At that time, none of the fee revenue will go the the Forests directly!
http://tchester.org/sgm/msc/fees/fees.html (http://tchester.org/sgm/msc/fees/fees.html)
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According to their website, logging and the thinning of trees is allowed by permit.
The logging in the Inyo is fuel wood, not timber for lumber or pulp. It's small time compared to a timber sale for lumber.
What had been going on in the Tongass was devistating especially when considering how much $$ forest service was selling the timber for. There's not much logging in Southeast Alaska anymore. The Indians are the only ones selling off their timber and ruining their land. They're pretty short sighted, but then again they also dump all their old cars and waste in the ocean.
The only logging I'm aware of is for intertie of the electrical grid.
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The Recreation Fee program is a national program. Under laws passed back in the 1960's, the FS was allowed to charge for campgrounds and a few other fees. With the 1994 congress, they decided that in order to balance the budget, there needed to be "end user pays" fees. Thus started the Recreation Fee Demonstration program. That started the Adventure Pass program on the 4 southern CA forests. There were also various other fee programs on forests throughout the US. This was supposed to supplement the recreation budgets on the forests to do improvements, deferred maintenance (backlog), etc. At the same time, a "perfect storm" occurred in the budgeting process. The forest service gets a "constrained budget" The way I like to explain it is "you get 50 widgets" or "you get a 10 inch pie." Now, congress dictates how many widgets are for wildlife, recreation, soils, watershed, fuels, etc. (or how big each slice is for each discipline). The only exception to this is fire. The presuppression/suppression budget is calculated by adding up how much it cost to suppress the last 10 years of fires and divide by 10. That is how many widgets they get or how big a slice of the pie they get. In 1993, this was roughly 13% of the total piece of the pie. Massive, large scale wildfires started in 1994 and have continued in most summers since. In 2010 fire's cut is roughly 50% of the pie. So, given we only have a 10" pie, and now half of it goes to fire, it only goes to figure that there is less for wildlife, recreation, soils, fuels management, etc. So the "extra" that was supposed to go to funding recreation from the fee program is now helping to prop up the rapidly declining system. It is being used to fund employees, pay the fee at the dump to dump all the trash generated by all those visitors, buy toilet paper for the restrooms, etc. I do know that for the Big Pines area Adventure Pass monies were used to fix up the Big Pines Clubhouse (that was condemned prior to the rennovation), fix up Apple Tree and Peavine picnic areas, helped pay for the rennovation of the "Comfort Station" across from Big Pines Clubhouse. It also pays salaries for some of the personnel that work in the area.
The "Forest Service" was established in 1905 with the "Transfer Act" that transferred the "Bureau of Forestry" from DOI to become the "Forest Service" under the Department of Agriculture. However, the budget for the Forest Service is still in the Interior Appropriations bill and not the USDA appropriations bill. The first chief of the Forest Service was Gifford Pinchot who received his forestry training in Germany. He believed trees were a "crop" to be harvested just like wheat and corn. If you look at the enabling legislation of the forest service, even under the 1897 Organic Act managing "forest reserves" was for timber production and watershed protection. There is nothing that says that the agency must turn a profit when selling timber. As for logging, under the old Forest Plans, there was an "Allowable Sale Quantity" or ASQ that was a ceiling of the maximum amount that could be cut on a sustainable basis. Using old FORPLAN modeling that was single dimentional, the system was flawed. Also, a lot of the old "timber beasts" used to immediately make the ASQ the "Target" that was to be sold every year. It was a nighmare. I don't know if the new forest plans will have ASQ in them, the 4 So CA forests were exempted from ASQ because there is such a small market for the timber if it were to be harvested. There was some timber harvest over on the LA River District prior to the Station Fire.
The Tongass and the Chugach NFs in Alaska are a whole different ball game. They have all kinds of contracts and agreements that I don't know much about except for the fact that I would never want to work or live up there....
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Cid. that was a very good explanation. Some I had read about, such as the pie split theory but didin't know the history behind the program... thanks. more information we can pass along to the public in the field. I only wrote 10 NNC books the last two weekends.... looks like I better step it up a bit... ;)
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I was so ticked off when the adventure pass was enacted. Again, that's what taxes are for.
It totally excludes people who live paycheck-to-paycheck. And if you can't afford a pass, you sure need the forest for peace of mind!
Personally, I quit going hiking in Ice House Canyon for years to protest. I'm not sure if you're allowed to park up at the Mt Baldy ski Lifts without one, but I used to do that to take my niece to the snow. It wasn't until I had kids that I bit the bullet and bought one. I still don't like it, but during the current economic crisis, I'm not going to complain.
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I don't have anything philosophically against the Adventure Pass because our national forests are so poorly funded. I just wish I knew that it was going directly to our local forest. I still can't figure that part out.
BTW, I've lived paycheck to paycheck but $30 just isn't that hard to do across the span of a year. And believe me, I've been there.
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Where does the adventure pass money go? The USFS , on their own website admits: Several national forests have embraced new management concepts and solutions in this era of insufficient appropriated funding, including the funds of recreation passes. To that end, the southern California forests have developed some of the most progressive partner relationships in the entire agency; the partnership is with volunteer non-profit groups to maintain forests. The money...it surely isn't going to where we think it is.
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Rather than rail against the pass here or protest by not using the forest, it would be better to contact your local U.S. congressman as well as members of the congressional committees that oversee how the funds are distributed to protest the matter since it is congress that decides the budget.
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Rather than rail against the pass here or protest by not using the forest, it would be better to contact your local U.S. congressman as well as members of the congressional committees that oversee how the funds are distributed to protest the matter since it is congress that decides the budget.
Congress? Those crooked basxxxds are worthless, pay the 5 bucks and enjoy the great outdoors. Life's to short!
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Aamen, skierbob,
despite my dislike about the program, I buy the year pass to spent time in the quiet. Who knows if its buckling down under a screw ball government plans...but, I must admit that it helps me avoid neg. contact with the rangers and the price of advil for the headache
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I want to correct any misunderstandings about how the USFS personnel in the field feel about issuing NNCs or citations for Adventure Pass Violations.
Some may have gotten the idea that they like writing people up for it and take great pleasure in ruining one's day in the forest. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Most of the USFS personnel out of Big Pines, including those who are paid and volunteers, don't really care for the program either. In fact some have been fairly vocal about their desire that the program end all together.
Believe me, we have a lot of other things we could be doing in the Forest, but it's part of the job.
Typically, when heading out on Patrol we will "plan" our day and what we want to get accomplished. Usually Adventure Pass compliance never takes more than 50% of our day except on very heavy snow play days. A lot of days we'll only write a very small handfull of NNCs and on other days we won't write any at all. It all depends on what the needs are for the day.
The good thing about so many NNCs being written and Adventure Passes being sold over these heavy snow player days, is hopefully some higher-ups taking note of the heavy use and possibly getting more people assigned here to this part of the forest. ;D This has already happened.
FYI, we have two more "paid" USFS REC people (Rec-35 and Rec-36) assigned to our part of the forest this winter. :2thumbsup:
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I want to correct any misunderstandings about how the USFS personnel in the field feel about issuing NNCs or citations for Adventure Pass Violations. ......
The good thing about so many NNCs being written and Adventure Passes being sold over these heavy snow player days, is hopefully some higher-ups taking note of the heavy use and possibly getting more people assigned here to this part of the forest. ;D This has already happened.
Correct Bob, health and welfare are first on the list, public education after that. As you said, most of the public are very nice and fun to interact with.
I have to add, however, that as long as the AP program is the main vehicle in place that brings money back to the area to support many of the high use issues that we have locally such as buying boatloads of toilet paper for the bathrooms (for those that use it), more bathrooms (for those that use them), bathroom vault cleaning (for those that use those instead of the floor), more trashcans (for those that use them) and more trash monies spent at the dump, not to mention the maintenance/improvement issues mentioned above like Big Pines and the bathrooms across the way, I will not feel guilty for working the system as it exists - as a local, I would like to be able to enjoy the forest, not a junkyard.
As SkierBob implies, the whole "I don't like the AP program argument is irrelevant" if anyone would like to enjoy our local beauty until powers that be directly fund the high concentrations of urban use that we see. And honestly, why shouldn't there be an end user program? Those of you that don't care for the AP program would be even more upset if you lived in an area with a quiet local national forest and most of your hard earned tax dollars went to urban forests and those all over the west with high fire danger.
We are lucky under current system to have local cost cutting solutions that save money for some of these problems so that we can get more for less, such as the boys from the Fenner Camp who pick up trash and those Big Pines volunteers who also do their turn power washing the bathrooms as that is the only way to clean them.
Graham Ranch wrote "Where does the adventure pass money go?"
I thought that was covered in the Angeles link that I posted for you? If you would like more detail, it would be more constructive, as I suggested, to try the number listed in the lower right frame to see if more is accounting is available. At the minimum, perhaps you could get a list of physical improvements.
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BTW, I've lived paycheck to paycheck but $30 just isn't that hard to do across the span of a year. And believe me, I've been there.
When you figure in the cost of gas, its just one more added pressure and keeps people in the margins away. A person shouldn't have to scrimp and save to go someplace that is a resource for all to enjoy. To charge a fee is exclusionary; and on principle, I don't think it should exist. I think I hear John Muir rolling over in his grave. . .
(Don't even get me started on tolls for non-private roads! ;) )
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BTW, I've lived paycheck to paycheck but $30 just isn't that hard to do across the span of a year. And believe me, I've been there.
When you figure in the cost of gas, its just one more added pressure and keeps people in the margins away. A person shouldn't have to scrimp and save to go someplace that is a resource for all to enjoy. To charge a fee is exclusionary; and on principle, I don't think it should exist. I think I hear John Muir rolling over in his grave. . .
(Don't even get me started on tolls for non-private roads! ;) )
With all due respect, if you truly feel this way, wanking on this forum is relatively useless. Use that energy to contact your congressional representative and tell them to come up with better ways to fund the agency. The big issue is to come up with ways to fund large scale wildfires, emergencies, etc. and NOT have that come out of the constrained budget. Fund the agency at the same level it is now but don't make it pay for these large scale disasters out of the regular budget. THAT is what hurts the regular "program of work." Three percent of the wildfires take somewhere in the neighborhood of 97% of the fire budget (that 50% of the pie I talked about earlier).
Personally--I HATE the program. I too feel that public land should be free. But the reason I really hate it is it is a pain in the tukas to administer. We still have the "iron rangers" here where people put money into the fee tubes. We have to collect it, count it, deposit it in the bank, play "meter maid" instead of doing the "real" job. People break into the tubes and steal money, not to mention urinating into the tubes and doing other things I won't mention on a family friendly forum. We have to handle all the money with gloves on because of "bodily fluids." If you really feel strongly about getting rid of the program--go to the people who can do something about it, don't whine and complain to the people who are directed to administer it but have no power to change it. You do!
And John Muir and Gifford Pinchot had a big falling out over "preservation vs. conservation." Old Johnny didn't like the Forest Reserves waaaay before he died.... ;)
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Where does the adventure pass money go?
It goes to pay the trash truck driver's salary. It pays for the trash truck. It pays the dump fees at the dump. It pays the salary of a couple of the employees on the district. It pays for toilet paper, trash bags, paint and graffitti removal supplies. I already said about the reconstruction that it paid for on several of the recreation sites in the Big Pines area.
I started working for the FS in 1978. No, the current FS is not what it was back in the 70's. And it never will be. It has changed, some for good, some for bad just like the rest of the world. Time to move on and figure out how to go from here.
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Where does the adventure pass money go?
It goes to pay the trash truck driver's salary. It pays for the trash truck. It pays the dump fees at the dump. It pays the salary of a couple of the employees on the district. It pays for toilet paper, trash bags, paint and graffitti removal supplies. I already said about the reconstruction that it paid for on several of the recreation sites in the Big Pines area.
We have four volunteers out regularly during the week handling a lot of the graffitti removal. Until just recently they were buying a lot of the supplies out of their own pockets. People need to know the type of dedicated volunteers that come out of Wrightwood and how committed they are to keeping our part of the forest a place that people can enjoy.
Volunteer 17, who was highlighted in this month's Big Pines Volunteer Newsletter, was quoted as saying: "Trash in the forest is a major problem. I can complain about it, which I do, or I can clean it up. I choose the later usually."
Few realize how much toilet paper it takes to fill the restrooms just in our area, Area 12, of the Angeles National Forest that the Big Pines Station is responsible for.
It takes nearly 110 rolls of toilet paper to fully stock the restrooms (I'm not counting the Concession Campgrounds which the concesionaires are responsible for). It takes 26 rolls just to stock the "comfort station", which I call the "flushers" across the street from the Big Pines Station. Over the heavy use weekends we just had, the "flushers" had to be restocked EVERY DAY!!
I'm happy for every cent the Adventure Pass Program may bring back into our district.
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On N4 there's one between Mile High and Jackson Lake. I don't drive the other way much.
Anyone that spends any time in the mountains and doesn't carry a roll of TP isn't prepaired :o
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On N4 there's one between Mile High and Jackson Lake. I don't drive the other way much.
Anyone that spends any time in the mountains and doesn't carry a roll of TP isn't prepaired :o
Ok Bob you got the one on the north side located at Jackson Lake. ;)
I forgot to mention that we get asked many times how do you sign up to do what we do as volunteers. It's simple, stop by the Big Pines Station and speak to the big ugly guy behind the desk. :o
What we do isn't glamorous and if you can't deal with what goes on such as the activities that occur in bathrooms and other places ::) injury responses, changing trash can liners out and dumping trash, protocol training, then maybe it isn't for you.
The real reward is being part of a public service that gives back emotionally.
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Thanks for that map link Elk ;) I purposly didn't want to post that yet to see how many people that frequent the area actually pay attention... now I can move on.
Upon looking at the map you will notice that it is broken up into rec areas. The west boundary for our are (12) is at Vincent Gap. No AP is required until you reach Islip Saddle. Little Jimmy campground is exempt because it is a walk in campground only. The wilderness areas are walkin only as well. You will also notice Table Mtn. areas are required to have an AP displayed except in the host campground. Which includes the turn out looking south towards Mtn. High while entertaining yourself along the paved service road.
We are understanding that if you stop to use a bathroom, take pictures, even have a lunch we, or at least I don't write an NNC. If the vehicle is parked and the owner isn't around, then that will be dealt with.
One will also notice there is a sign advising visitors between the parking lots of Mtn. High East and West parking lots that vehicles beyond this point must display and AP. Nobody is going to like what I'm about to say but here goes.
You do NOT have to display an AP East of that boundary sign from the location I just discribed. Which also meens we do NOT write NNC's east of the boundary sign. All of those vehicles you see parked along Hyw.2 clear back into town are not required to display an AP. There is a lot of "legal" parking along that stretch of road. There is a lot of "illegal" parking along the stretch of raod as well. So what it boils down to is that those locations mentioned are CHP's responsibility that patrols that area to issue citations or tow illegally parked cars along Hwy.2 not for the FS to be concerend about. I thought I would make that clear as it's been mentioned before why doesn't the FS do something about the parked cars along the Hwy. Simple, not our job. FS Leo's could write actual parking tickets but were do you draw the line with so few bodies to go around and they as well as us on patrol are required to respond to higher priority calls such as injuries or knuckle heads leaving campfires burning. As mentioned several times previously in this thread, health and welfare comes first response not parking tickets.
I think we've answered most questions especially k9luvr who we do miss from being up here. We do the best we can with what we have and it certainly could be worse.
Please don't hesitate to ask questions here, myself or someone else will try to help or give reference.
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Here is the link the Volunteers use:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/ap/maps/anf-bigpines-bigrock.shtml
You'll also notice that the recreation fee area stops up on Blue Ridge at the Devil's Backbone Trailhead behind Wright Mountain.
So if you are stopped at the Heath Creek Slide, you'll need one. If you travel the road past the trail head, say to the end at Slover, you will not need one.
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Your Adventure Pass dollars at work:
Before
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_Before1-1.jpg)
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_Before2-1.jpg)
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/Rec34_JL3.jpg)
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/Rec34_JL.jpg)
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/Rec34_JL2.jpg)
After
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_After1-1.jpg)
Before
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_Before4-1.jpg)
After
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_After4-1.jpg)
Before
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_Before3-1.jpg)
After
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/JL_After3-1.jpg)
Before
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/IP_Before2.jpg)
After
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/IP_After3-1.jpg)
Before
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/IP_Before3.jpg)
After
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/RobertWMorgan/USFS/IP_After2-1.jpg)
You have a lot of people doing what they can to keep our part of the Angeles National Forest beautiful. Would you like to help? As Toolman said, all you have to do is pop in at the Big Pines Ranger Station and tell the guy behind the counter you're interested...
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He said it was not necessary as he never has had one has been cited several times in the past and simply does not pay the fee. I was wondering what will ultimately happen to this guy if he continues to ignore the tickets, beyond this information.
How would it play out if he ignores all notices and mail and continues parking in the same spot. Will his car be towed? Will he be arrested?
It is "possible" that the next time he gets pulled over and has his plate run by law enforcement, as the registered owner of the vehicle, he will come up with a warrant.
We were taught in training that after 30 days, a bench warrant "CAN" be issued. I don't know if that has ever happened, but if your friend is getting multiple NNCs and he keeps ignoring them, the "system" will take notice and he is going to get somebody's attention. I'd say he's multiplying his chances for problems down the line.
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PLUS that trail is closed
PLUS the forest is closed
$5000 fine each order
Check the ANF web pages
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/orders/MtLowe0001.pdf
Order No. 01-09-02
MI. LOWE TRUCK TRAIL CLOSURE OCCUPANCY AND USE ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST
Pursuant to 36 CFR 261 .50(b), and to protect natural resources and provide for public safety, the following act is prohibited within the Los Angeles River Ranger District of the Angeles National Forest This Order is effective from June 9, 2009 through June 8, 2010.
Being on Mt. Lowe Truck Trail (Forest Trail No. 2N50) from its intersection with Eaton Saddle then continuing west 112 mile to its intersection with Markham Saddle, as shown in Exhibil A 36 CFR 261 .55(a).
Pursuant to 36 CFR 261 .50(e), the following persons are exempt from this Order:
Persons with a permit from the Forest Service specifically authorizing the otherwise prohibited act or omission.
Any Federal, State, or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or fire fighting force in the performance of an official duty.
This prohibition is in addition to the general prohibitions contained in 36 CFR Part 261 , Subpart A.
Done at Arcadia, California, this eight day of June, 2009.
Forest Supervisor Angeles National Forest
A violation of this prohibition is punishable by a fine of not more than $5,000 for an individual or $10,000 for an organization, or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both, 16 USC 551 and 18 USC 3559, 3571, and 3581.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/orders/StationFireRecoveryOrder-01-09-08.pdf
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OUCH! ;D
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OUCH! ;D
He's 28... ::) I sent him all these quotes.. ;D Hope he figures it out before any of it happens... :P
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He's 28... ::) I sent him all these quotes.. ;D Hope he figures it out before any of it happens... :P
:2thumbsup: You're a good friend!
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To give you an idea of changes in the recreation budgets, here is an interesting comparison.
In 1995, the Recreation and Lands staff on my current district (Sandia, just outside of Albuquerque, NM) had a budget of 1.1 million dollars for the rec and lands program.
In 2010, the Recreation and Lands budgets for the entire FOREST (Cibola--there are 4 mountain districts and 2 national grassland districts) is 1.8 million dollars.
Yes, that is still a lot of money. But costs have also gone up as well. That is why you are not seeing as many paid employees out and about dealing with the recreation program. There used to be a "maintenance crew" of 5 people, now we are down to one. This is why, given current budget configurations, the agency has become so dependent upon Recreation Fee program (in So CA, the Adventure Pass) monies and volunteers.
Just thought it was an interesting comparison, now that we have our final budget....
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Unbelievable photos!
I guess these idiots like to feel at home while using our forests - making the forest look like their neighborhoods.
Disgusting!
>:(
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Unbelievable photos!
I guess these idiots like to feel at home while using our forests - making the forest look like their neighborhoods.
Disgusting!
>:(
Seriously, but what could be done if you catch someone in the act? Legally I mean.
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In 1995, the Recreation and Lands staff on my current district (Sandia, just outside of Albuquerque, NM) had a budget of 1.1 million dollars for the rec and lands program.
In 2010, the Recreation and Lands budgets for the entire FOREST (Cibola--there are 4 mountain districts and 2 national grassland districts) is 1.8 million dollars.
Geez, that's awful. Those figures really bring it home.
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Seriously, but what could be done if you catch someone in the act? Legally I mean.
Because it happens in a National Forest, it is a "Federal Crime". We take pictures of all the "tags" and gang "monikers" when buildings and signs are hit by grafitti, before removing it or painting it over. This information is cataloged.
When a "tagger" or gang member is caught in the act of using that particular "moniker", even if it is down in the city, the court systems pulls up all the cataloged occurances of that particular "tag" or "moniker", and the person is charged with EACH occurance. I've been told that the Forest Service was successful not very long ago in putting a "tagger" away for a lot of years because of having pictorial evidence of his "moniker" all over the Forest.
That is one reason we always carry a camera with us when out on patrol. The picture is sent in to our superiors electronically with a reference to the Incident Report that was created.
I've never caught anybody in the act, but I don't think it'd be too hard to have the person apprehended by a nearby LEO, CHP or Sheriff's officer, as there are only a couple of routes they can use to get off the mountain and it takes at least 30 to 45 minutes to so. ;D
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Because it happens in a National Forest, it is a "Federal Crime". We take pictures of all the "tags" and gang "monikers" when buildings and signs are hit by grafitti, before painting it over. This information is cataloged.
When a "tagger" or gang member is caught in the act of using that particular "moniker", even if it is down in the city, the court systems pulls up all the cataloged occurances of that particular "tag" or "moniker", and the person is charged with EACH occurance. I've been told that the Forest Service was successful not very long ago in putting a "tagger" away for a lot of years because of having pictorial evidence of his "moniker" all over the Forest.
That is one reason we always carry a camera with us when out on patrol. The picture is sent in to our superiors with a reference to the Incident Report that was created.
Thanks, That's interesting. I didn't know you are a ranger. So what would you do if you saw a tagging in progress? I mean can you arrest them on the spot?
What's to stop a rival gang from tagging the others moniker? :P
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Thanks, That's interesting. I didn't know you are a ranger. So what would you do if you saw a tagging in progress? I mean can you arrest them on the spot?
What's to stop a rival gang from tagging the others moniker? :P
I am one of the Volunteers working for the USFS out of the Big Pines Station. For the most part there are three "branches" of the USFS that most forest visitors come into contact with. Recreation, Fire and Law Enforcement. As Volunteers for the USFS we work in "Recreation". We are the face of the Forest Service before the public. We are the good guys, the rangers you remember when growing up. We take care of the campgrounds and trails. We are there to answer questions, inform the public of and enforce various Forest regulations, and pass out Smokey Bear comic and activity books to the kids. Should we encounter an injury, we call in the Paramedics. If we encounter a crime in progress, we call in the LEOs.
Part of our training dealt with how to handle situations and keep ourselves out of harms way. Our training is always ongoing and "people skills" are very important. We rarely work alone and we do not put ourselves in dangerous situations or where we might run into serious problems with unsavory characters. We have LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) Federal Police, if you will, who patrol the area as well and work with us. It is their job to cite lawbreakers and make arrests.
Just a couple of weekends ago when we were responding on a illegal campfire that was off the beaten path, in an area where we've had problems with illegal shooting, we called in for assistance from "Edwards-17" (LEO) and a LACo Sheriff's 260-Roberts unit. It really wasn't needed but they were in the area, so why not? It is better to be safe than sorry. You never know who you're going to run into in the woods. I kind of felt sorry for the guy. He just wanted to get away from all the commotion in the campgrounds by the Hwy, and here comes a USFS Blazer, a Federal Law Enforcement Cruiser and an LACo Sheriff's rig. The only ones missing were the CHP and the FBI. ;D
The LEO ran his license for wants and warrants and we had him put the illegal campfire out. He could have been cited, but hey, we are not out there to ruin people's day. We gave him suggestions on where to camp where he could have a campfire legally and bid him a good day.
Should we observe tagging going on, or something more serious like individuals with guns, we'd observe, keep ourselves out of harms way, contact Angeles Dispatch and have them bring in the people who can handle it. It's hard to out run the radio.
As for someone else using another's moniker, that kind of defeats the purpose of their tagging in the first place. They want THEIR moniker made known. In the case of a tagger being charged with ALL the occurrences of it, I doubt he did it all himself, as there are other members of the "gang", but he's the one that got caught. Hey, it's a risky business. ;D
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They won't use another's moniker, what they will do is put a line thru a rival gang's tag then put their own below it. Here on the Sandia, we got caught in the cross fire of a gang war between North Side Locos (NSL) and South Side Locos/TSK (Thugs Causing Kaos) (SSL and TSK). There was krap all over the place. They were trying to set up territory on the mountain and expand their enterprises (none good). With the help of the Sherrif's office, we were able to squeeze them back into the city. They still make forays into the mountains but we try and get rid of the graffiti right away. It is an ongoing battle. Personally, I think they are all a bunch of worthless turdfondlers!
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The outdoor toilet vaults at Inspiration Point Vista were pumped clean today with over 1500 gallons of waste removed including four 55 gallon plastic trash bags of bottles and cans, ect. removed. The Sweet Smelling Toilets (SST's) should be good for several months depending upon use patterns before they need to be pumped again. The Adventure Pass helps to keep the SST's clean for the public.
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Just found out we used 10 cases of toilet paper just for the month of December. There are 80 rolls in each case.
Adventure Pass monies paid for it.
The beauty of the Adventure Pass program is that those who used it, paid for it. :2thumbsup:
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We do care and thank the public for supporting the program.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Thankyou-1.jpg)
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I just read in the AV Press today and tomorrow Adventure passes are not required in the forest..
any truth to this?
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I just read in the AV Press today and tomorrow Adventure passes are not required in the forest..
any truth to this?
Yes, in honor of National Trails:
Angeles National Forest - Welcome!
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/
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Yes, it is true. It is a "fee free day" nationwide in all national forests. Anyplace that has a recreation amenity fee (this excludes campgrounds) are free today. Veterans day is also historically a "fee free day"
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This change in the Adventure Pass violation policy (from NNC to NRF) was posted a couple of weeks ago. It was pulled so as to await the change being made public on the Adventure Pass websites.
The websites have now been updated and the NNC is officially a thing of the past. Thus, we have reposted the information.
Bold italics in the above post are quotes from the website.
For more information click on the links in the above post.
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The map included in Bob's post shows the boundaries of the area 12 recreationional fee usage area.
The new CFR code is not limited to area 12 alone, as this Federal change is nation wide where recreation fee's are required.
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This may be a dumb question, but I have a new truck and the rear view mirror is too wide to hang the pass on it. Therefore, I have to lay it on my dash. That will be okay, Right?
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This may be a dumb question, but I have a new truck and the rear view mirror is too wide to hang the pass on it. Therefore, I have to lay it on my dash. That will be okay, Right?
That's what I always do, anyway. If I have the sun shades in my windshield, which I always do if parked for very long, I make sure my pass is visible in front of the shade. Not a dumb question at all. :)
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This may be a dumb question, but I have a new truck and the rear view mirror is too wide to hang the pass on it. Therefore, I have to lay it on my dash. That will be okay, Right?
It is perfectly fine. However, if your truck is tall, it may be harder to see for short people like me. If so, and you set it in the dash vertically, that would help.
If you go out a lot, you might fashion a work around. For example, you might loop a ribbon around the mirror stem and hang the pass with something like the ever handy paper clip or something like that.
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I've even seen people leave it on the Passenger seat. Not sure if they just set it down and forgot or what.
We go to great efforts, looking for the pass to make sure we don't miss it before writing the vehicle up. Having the Adventure Pass on the rear view mirror just makes it easier for us to see when we pull into a parking lot, like at Vincent Gap. We can see the pass without getting out of the vehicle. But many people leave it on the dash and that is fine.
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I've come upon some displayed in the drivers side window stuck into the rubber seal. Not a bad idea when we're driving buy the turn outs along the road but I wonder how many have been lost inside the door when you hop in and roll the window down ::)
Like Bob says, we do look everywhere possible before writing up the vehicle. Our first look is the mirror then the dash. An ID badge laniard is a good choice for hanging / display as long as we can see the expiration.
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A little birdie told me that if you have a pass and forget it, there is a check box on the back of the citation to indicate you have a pass. Was that true? Is that still in effect? Are you still fined in that situation?
For any cynics, I *never* intend to forget the pass, but I'm not going to drive out of the middle of the forest to go get it...or even buy a secondary pass. When you have more than one car, it happens.
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A little birdie told me that if you have a pass and forget it, there is a check box on the back of the citation to indicate you have a pass. Was that true? Is that still in effect? Are you still fined in that situation?
For any cynics, I *never* intend to forget the pass, but I'm not going to drive out of the middle of the forest to go get it...or even buy a secondary pass. When you have more than one car, it happens.
On the old "NNC" form there was indeed a place to indicate that you have an Adventure Pass and could write the serial number on your Adventure Pass in the place provided, or you could mail in your daily pass with the NNC.
Unfortunately, there is no provision for that on the "Notice of Required Fee" form. After all, the violation (section 261.17 of the 36CFR code) is for "not legally displaying an Adventure Pass". It doesn't have anything to do with whether you have one or not.
On several occasions in the past I have NOT written an NNC when the person is there and tells me that he has an anual Pass but left it in the other car. I'll believe them and not make a big issue over it. I'm not out there to ruin their day.
Of course it isn't as if you have no recourse:
"If the Field Ranger missed seeing your pass, or left you a message stating that your pass was unreadable, please contact the Fee Program office at 909-382-2622, 2623 or 2618. A service representative will assist you in resolving the issue."
I suppose you could reason that since you left it at home or in the glove box, the Field Ranger just missed seeing your pass. ;D I'm not sure how flexible the "service representative" is under this new arrangement.
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A little birdie told me that if you have a pass and forget it, there is a check box on the back of the citation to indicate you have a pass. Was that true? Is that still in effect? Are you still fined in that situation?
For any cynics, I *never* intend to forget the pass, but I'm not going to drive out of the middle of the forest to go get it...or even buy a secondary pass. When you have more than one car, it happens.
They sure are on top of it out there...
I left my car for a sec, and bam...ticket. I have to remember to display that thing at all times.
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They sure are on top of it out there...
I left my car for a sec, and bam...ticket. I have to remember to display that thing at all times.
They would make way more money busting all the people who are hiking in the closed areas. ;D
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They sure are on top of it out there...
I left my car for a sec, and bam...ticket. I have to remember to display that thing at all times.
That would be the wise thing to do.
The budget for the forest will most likely be low this year, when it gets passed. This is due to fewer Adventure Passes being sold due to the Station Fire Closure. So the more Adventure Passes sold, the better for our Forest.
Unlike the NNCs which were back logged by months and months, I can assure you that I know first hand that the NRFs are being entered into the Federal database in a timely manner.
Be sure you pay the NRF. Basically, as the website mentions, if you receive a "Notice of Required Fee" for not displaying an Adventure Pass and do not send in the $5.00 in payment, you can be mailed a "Violation Notice" ($100 citation). Repeat offenders (those caught more than once without an Adventure Pass) are immediately subject to a "Violation Notice" ($100 citation plus court costs or handling fees) and fines can escalate after that.
With the NNC, if you forgot to display your pass but you had one, you could write the serial number in a spot provided or even mail in a daily pass with the violation. That is NOT the case with the new "Notice of Required Fee".
It doesn't matter if you HAVE a pass. The violation (261.17 of the 36CFR code) is for failure to Legally DISPLAY a pass.
BTW, you had to have been out of the car for more than a second, as we will not issue NRF violations to people who get out of their car momentarily, stretching their legs, enjoying the view, snapping pictures, using the restrooms, just sitting in their cars, etc. ;D Adventure Passes are for those that are actually recreating in the forest. See you on the hill!
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They would make way more money busting all the people who are hiking in the closed areas. ;D
FO... I can assure you that they are citing people that are using the closed areas of the forest. I hear them doing so on the USFS Radio all day long.
Andrew Fish (Non-motorized trails program manager) and Gerry Reponen (Assistant Recreation Officer for the LARRD) are trying to get more of the Forest open. Some of the main reasons for the closure are: 1)high risk of debris flow and 2) the increase of invasive plants from hikers bringing it in on their boots and clothes, where there is fertile soil. A full assessment needs to be done of the burn area and what needs to be done and what needs funding.
The budget looks like it will be less this year, whenever it gets passed. Part of the reason the budget is low is because less Adventure Passes are being sold. There continue to be surveys of the closed area of the forest but the surveys involve using a measuring wheel, and lots of paperwork, thus it takes time. Once there is a big rain, they have to withdraw from working in the burn area all together.
Andrew is trying to get volunteers from the LAARD side of the Angeles National Forest to work at the trailheads so as to educate the public about closures to forest users trying to get into closed areas.
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They would make way more money busting all the people who are hiking in the closed areas. ;D
No, they wouldn't. Money from citations goes back to the general treasury. Money from REA programs (like the adventure pass) go back to the unit for which it was purchased from or for.
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A. I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that the Adventure Passes were illegal.
B. I also read that the Forest Service intended to continue enforcing the passes, which confused me until now - was their goal to ignore the Supreme Court ruling and just hope people wouldn't challenge citations in the courts? If so, that's low and makes me much less sympathetic to my next question.
C. Where in the plan do they intend to make up for the loss in funds? You might laugh at that question, but it shouldn't be a given that federal funding cannot cover the loss.
So here's the answer to one of my questions:
But because the case (the case I referenced above) originated in the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, the Pacific Southwest Region of the Forest Service did not institute changes
I'm no lawyer, but the verbiage in the ruling didn't specify the ruling only applied to a portion of the country. Though, I don't recall it specifically stated it should apply nationally either. I'm not liking the thinking behind that maneuver.
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This is more complicated than most know. The ruling didn't apply to us here in the Angeles, but is under review and appeals and still in the courts. The situation in the Arizona Forest is quite different than ours here in the Angeles. I'm told that there, they were charging the fee just to access the Forest. We don't do that here in the Angeles. According the wording, we can still charge a "recreation fee" if people were using an area of the forest that included amenities provided by the Forest Service such as bathrooms, trash cans, benches, tables and information boards. As USFS Volunteers we have backed off issuing "NRFs" (Notice of Required Fees) in areas that don't include these amenities, even though they fall in the "Required Fee Recreation Areas".
You may have noticed benches and tables popping up in certain areas, so that we can continue to require an Adventure Pass. Adventure Passes are still required in non- concession campgrounds, at Vincent Gap, Jackson Lake, Arch Picnic Area, etc., because these amenities are provided. We quit writing NRFs for people just parked along the road such as Big Rock Creek, etc. It is still being debated in the courts and the Adventure Pass may go away all together.
The problem is that here in this forest the Adventure Pass funds ALL of the materials used in keeping these areas up, such as Toilet Paper, Trash Cans, Fire pits, BBQ stands, Trash liners, paint to cover over graffiti, etc. Congress does not provide for this in the budget, which they will have to do if the Adventure Pass goes away. That is one reason this bill to end the Adventure Pass is always put on the back burner and left for the next Congress to deal with, who then do the same.
If money is included in the budget to provide for these materials, I don't think anybody will care if the Adventure Pass goes away. I know when out on Patrol for the USFS, we have better things to do, but can you imagine the complaints when the bathrooms are locked up because we don't have money to buy toilet paper and the trash cans go away because we don't have money to buy the liners and graffiti is no longer dealt with because there is no money to buy the paint to cover it over?
People make the argument that "I pay taxes and so shouldn't have to pay another fee to recreate on public U.S. land". Good argument, but your tax dollars aren't showing up here in the forest to provide the things the public wants. That's the whole crux of the issue.
We will just see have to see what happens. Despite what people may think, we don't enjoy writing citations for Adventure Pass violations, but we do recognize the need to do so if we want to provide the amenities expected. That is why I don't have a problem buying an Adventure Pass every year, but then I see both sides of the issue. ;D
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I don't get how the mayor of LA can ask for a billion federal dollars to return the LA river to a natural-looking (yet still polluted) state while the FS can't afford toilet paper. And IIRC, if he doesn't get the billion dollars, they already are OK with spending $500 million.
How many people actually USE the LA river?
How many people use the Angeles National Forest?
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Hmmm. Just got a ticket last weekend. :'(