WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => San Gabriel Mtns Flora - Fauna => Topic started by: Joe Schmoe on Jun 24, 14, 10:11:51 PM
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Found these on a flat-topped rock in the forest near some landmarks that I suppose could be considered important to Native Americans. Not sure if it was created by a weathering process, or Native American activity, or something more modern since it was very close to Hwy 2. There were a number of other large rocks around and none showed such obvious holes, none were as flat-topped either. Opinions?
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2931/14316235337_a3c3d01e99_o.jpg)
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I'm not an archaeologist or a geologist, but I'd vote natural ... I've seen perfect circles formed like that from water erosion, and on the right side of the photo you can see three areas of unfinished pitting. But I'll be curious to see if anyone else thinks otherwise. Interesting find!
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Interesting! http://www.arrowheadology.com/forums/todays-finds-situ/43155-official-bedrock-mortar-thread-post-yours-here.html
Really thinking of going back to look for the "pestle" rocks that supposedly should be lying around. My homework for threads here is piling up!
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Looks like a communal grinding stone where the women would sit around and grind acorns or whatever grain and chat. These are very common throughout California and I've numerous ones in the Southern Sierra and Northern California. Normally found near a seasonal camp site and some source of water.
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Geology major of long ago: opinion - Native American grinding holes. When holes are eroded into rock, it's more likely to be the kinds of rock which are mostly grains cemented together with some kind of calcium; the rock in the picture looks like a metamorphic rock, normally a tough rock which wouldn't wear away much. And holes from natural rainfall happen more frequently on a REALLY flat surface - this picture makes it look like the water would have drained off, instead of sitting in a puddle and softening the rock. That's the normal start of the process - a very slow process - which will result in those eroded holes.
Rocks like Mormon Rocks are full of holes that formed on nearly vertical surfaces, or even underneath an overhang, but the erosion was a little different there. In those cases, the rock was likely not as hard/cemented, and the main agent of erosion is wind-driven water and wet sand, frost expansion from water that seeped in, or small burrowing creatures. Those start as small holes and may eventually widen to form arches with a hole in the center, like Rainbow Arch at Lake Powell; that's also a sandstone formation.
It takes a lot of patience to make that many grinding holes in a big slab of metamorphic rock; my hat is off the the ancients!
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There is an interpretive trail (easy 1-mile loop) at the Mormon Rocks Ranger Station off the 138 ~ 1.5 mi W of the 15. There are mortar holes visible from the trail. The last time I was there, (a few years ago), there was a trail map/pamphlet at the start of the trail. It is a beautiful trail, and a great place to take pictures of wild flowers in early Spring.
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How fascinating....a herbal/medicine shop from years gone by
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Hey Schmoe, I worked as a paraprofessional archaeologist with the U.S. Forest Service for over 20years. I have recorded and documented dozens of prehistoric archaeological sites in the Angeles National Forest including many in the forest near Wrightwood. Perhaps you could PM me to discuss some of the features of this rock. Generally speaking the Angeles National Forest protects prehistoric sites by keeping there location confidential to prevent looting and vandalism. Usually there is more to a site than just the bed rock mortar feature and you might find the pestle if it has not been collected by someone over the years.
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Went back to explore the area, clean out the holes and take more pictures. These are huge pictures so people can examine them closely...but they will take forever to load on slow-ish connections. We looked for similar rocks and found none. If anyone has concerns about my cleaning out the holes for the photos...well, sorry. This will be my last trip there anyhow.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3849/14508854844_c08cd2e859_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/14487121946_e4ec963d91_o.jpg
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5479/14509100232_7d5242a736_o.jpg
If, and it's a big if, the rock above is a Native American site for grinding pine nuts this would be an ideal place to find them!
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/14323774227_4424a7ff8a_o.jpg)
Also found a 50-year old tab top Budweiser can that looks like a bear took a liking to. The place this is has some more recent, yet old history that I'd like to know about, assuming the rock doesn't pan out as a archaeological site and I can share where it is.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3862/14487121476_5a8133000e_o.jpg)
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From the pictures I believe I know exactly where this is, as I was exploring the area for old cedar boards and actually found what I was looking for. Did you happen to notice some very old timber planks and posts in the area? Did you happen to notice what may have appeared to be an old road at one time? If so, I'll share some of an old Big Pines History article I wrote on the area.
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Oh Joe Schmoe... Did you bring that old beer can home with you? We just bought a large Hockney poster of his "Pearblossom Highway" .. and we've decided to make a frame out of various detritus from the area for it. That can would be perfect for it. Even a photo of it might work. cheryl o7o
p.s. Wasn't it you that wanted my old steam cleaner that needed repair? If so, it is here waiting for you.
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From the pictures I believe I know exactly where this is, as I was exploring the area for old cedar boards and actually found what I was looking for. Did you happen to notice some very old timber planks and posts in the area? Did you happen to notice what may have appeared to be an old road at one time? If so, I'll share some of an old Big Pines History article I wrote on the area.
Sounds like Robert's got it. Yes, we hiked down an old road (the pine cone photo) as far as we could go before it began to disappear and be overgrown with trees that looked 20-years old themselves. We could see signs of "oldness" all along - trees cut down long ago, old unused fire pits and a spot that looked like it might have been a small campground. By the time we made it back up we were beat and the mosquitoes were trying to carry us away so I didn't have much time to explore around the rock. However, I use the word "local" loosely here...it's some distance from Big Pines.
Oh Joe Schmoe... Did you bring that old beer can home with you? p.s. Wasn't it you that wanted my old steam cleaner that needed repair? If so, it is here waiting for you.
Sorry, I left the can where I found it. No steam cleaners for me :)
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Well good for you Joe to have left it there. I will contact you via p.m. about a possible picture of it. Hockney's piece was a photo montage.. so a photo may just work for the frame. thanks, cheryl o7o
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Cheryl,
It was me that wanted the steam cleaner. You were going to check with your friend to see if he had some lamps.
Joe
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Joe.. Ok, laughing now. I did check with my friend and he doesn't have any extra lamps.. tho, I still have that sort of wagon wheelish floor,table lamp if you want it. The steam cleaner is still here.. and may go up to my "people's collection point." So far, so good. Everything I put out there is gone the next day or so and I don't have to call the trash company to pick it up. Next week, a refrigerator is going out there.
Course, this has nothing to do with Native American grinding holes.. but I gotta say I enjoyed these posts. cheryl o7o
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Looks like you were in the high country near Buckhorn and Hwy 2 or one of the old logging roads in that vicinity? The rock obviously has some natural occurring erosion patterns in shallow circular depressions but some of the smaller depressions may have been made from native American use I have seen similar features in other areas where you have natural and man made alterations that exist side by side. I have also seen sites that were prehistoric with a historic components are mixed together.
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It's between Islip Saddle and Vincent Gap. What's the consensus? Should I give up the charade and just post where it is or should I leave it be? Given it's location, someone here has to know of this place if it's of any significance.
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Here's my vote...give it up only by PM. Sadly, there is a reason that local forests no longer post locations of treasures such as this.
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I agree with Jim. Course, I just want that tin can. And, I think we'd be doing a service to the forest to remove it. I'm open to opposing views on that. cheryl o7o
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I agree with Jim. Course, I just want that tin can. And, I think we'd be doing a service to the forest to remove it. I'm open to opposing views on that. cheryl o7o
If that can has been there more then 50 years it might be considered an artifact and can not be removed. But I'd take it anyway :P nobody will miss it.
I'm sure Jim can verify my claim and the number of years.
"collection of archaeological
artifacts, such as arrowheads, old bottles, other historic
artifacts etc. is prohibited on National Forest lands"
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SkierBob.. Just fudgesicles.. I really wanted that can for our frame. And, I'm glad to read that an old Bud can may be an artifact that is protected. Somehow that seems right to me. cheryl o7o
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This boulder is unique.
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o505/rheinig/6-27-14004_zps51d6a9e2.jpg)
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I agree with Tall Trees that this boulder is unique. Whether is was an Indian grinding stone or the holes were caused by water remains the question. Oddly, we have a very similar rock here with pretty much identical holes.. but it is small.. like a foot in length. Mom found it somewhere and we always assumed the holes were caused by water erosion.
Back to that beer can for a minute. In the interest of history I took the time to look up both when 'pull tabs' were introduced and the Bud can labels over the years. Seems like pull tabs were first introduced in 62/64. So, it may be teetering on the 50 years. And, I could find no Bud can that was blue. So, perhaps another product of the same company. I dunno. But, I will find this. You know.. in the interest of history and the fact that I want that can. cheryl o7o
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The blue color is a result of my processing the picture. It took a very heavy amount of processing for the writing to be as faintly legible as it is. In reality it was nearly impossible to read. Only a small piece of the can that was curled inside by the bear's teeth had good color on it.
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Thanks Joe. You just saved me a lot of time. I will take a pic of the rock we have here with very similar hole markings for comparison purposes. I will then try to post it. Oh, ha ha ha. cheryl o7o