WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Wrightwood CSD Topics => Topic started by: MojaveSidecar on Nov 29, 16, 06:55:51 AM
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Use this topic to discuss Wrightwood CSD Waste Water power items.
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This one is of particular interest to me. I work in the wastewater industry and I'd like to get a straight perspective on what is actually happening in this department. I'm hearing talk about the main business part of town needing a small treatment system to compensate for poor leaching rates. I'm also hearing that the Lahonton water quality control board is doing some kind of study on the effects of failing septic systems on ground water in Wrightwood. If they find that the evidence supports degrading water quality in the groundwater because of septic systems they can actually recommend to the county that we install a community wide sewer system. I have searched online for some kind of information about this study but I can't find anything. I wonder how much of what I've heard is true. I'm really curious how it would work using a community wide CSD to operate a sewage collection and treatment system for a very small part of the community. Economy of scale tells us that a very small system will be very expensive to operate. I work for a very large agency and in the area I work, we charge over $500 a year in the form of a property tax to pay for a system that's used by 10's of thousands of people. Again, I'm really interested in this aspect of the CSD vote. Water/wastewater is a highly politically charged and extremely expensive industry. With state laws about the bidding process as it pertains to public agencies, cost estimates are usually off by an order of magnitude or more. I'm not even sure how involved the CSD would really be in this. Thanks to anyone that can fill in some of my huge gaps in knowledge.
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You mean generate power (electricity?) from our solid waste (garbage - not water/septic. And just to be clear, solid waste and wastewater are two separate issues) Interesting . . . is that even an option for us?
I was thinking if we could do our own recycling program and make a little profit from that maybe those funds could be used to offset some of the costs of Parks & Rec programs . . . but solid waste power . . . hummmmm.
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OK. I stand corrected (by my husband ;D) solid waste *can* include wastewater. But as I understand it, the proposed CSD would have responsibility for the solid waste that we currently take to the county transfer station (and will continue to take to the county transfer station if the CSD is approved) and only the potential to plan future sewage collection and treatment system IF the Lahonton water quality control board deems that necessary.
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You mean generate power (electricity?) from our solid waste (garbage - not water/septic. And just to be clear, solid waste and wastewater are two separate issues) Interesting . . . is that even an option for us?
"Power", as in "who Runs/controls/operates it"
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OK. I stand corrected (by my husband ;D) solid waste *can* include wastewater. But as I understand it, the proposed CSD would have responsibility for the solid waste that we currently take to the county transfer station (and will continue to take to the county transfer station if the CSD is approved) and only the potential to plan future sewage collection and treatment system IF the Lahonton water quality control board deems that necessary.
A few things here:
If Lahontan decides in the future, that something needs to happen in Wrightwood, it's going to happen, whether or not a CSA is in existence. You aren't stopping that train. This responsibility is currently a County function. "Someone" needs to have that responsibility. Since the CSD is basically taking over the county functions provided by CSA-56, the argument is that the CSD should now have the responsibility to deal with Lahontan, so the local "government" (CSD) has a voice in the matter.
No, I don't think there is any plan to create a sewage system for the entire community. Ask me again in 10 years or so.. maybe then, it will be an agenda item with Lahontan. Yes, there is some concern about the business district, and there was some talk about investigating the possibility of having some kind of treatment plan for that, only. All, just "long term" investigations at this point.
Yes, the CSD would handle Franchise fees currently paid by CR&R in return for the "exclusive right to handle garbage" in Wrightwood. This is just a way for the CSD to keep the money (8% or some ungodly amount) that CR&R pays to the county now.
It also include the sales and whatnot of the "dump cards". Currently, property owners pay the $85 to the county for a dump card. That money goes into the county coffers. With the CSD, the money would be returned to Wrightwood.
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I'm just going to chalk this one up to poor reading skills or something. I was sure that the CSD topic I posted in was specific to wastewater. I must have just misread that it was for solid waste. I appreciate the info Bob. I'm still right on the fence for the vote for a CSD and I was hoping I'd found a realm of information that I could at least process.
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I'm just going to chalk this one up to poor reading skills or something. I was sure that the CSD topic I posted in was specific to wastewater. I must have just misread that it was for solid waste. I appreciate the info Bob. I'm still right on the fence for the vote for a CSD and I was hoping I'd found a realm of information that I could at least process.
Well, it is both... The CSD would have responsibility with dealing with Lahontan for the sewage issue. The CSD would now collect the franchise fees (and negotiate with CR&R for future contracts), instead of the county doing that. Note: Nothing is being changed... CR&R will still be your disposal service, and it will remain optional. CR&R has already agreed to keep their current rates.
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Note: Topic name was changed to "Wrightwood CSD Waste Water Power"
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I also found the word "power" confusing. "Control" or "local control" might clearer.
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Unfortunately, I can't follow your link to the original article, so maybe I missed something. If this bill were to pass, and we had to pay for storm runoff, does it matter whether we have a CSD or pay the county directly? I don't follow how this is an "unintended consequence" of the CSD vote.
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I think these are the links Hank is referring to:
http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/11/sen-hertzberg-targets-homeowners-with-higher-water-and-sewer-rates/ (http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/11/sen-hertzberg-targets-homeowners-with-higher-water-and-sewer-rates/)
http://www.mrt.com/news/article/California-lawmakers-pass-bill-on-storm-water-fees-12165566.php (http://www.mrt.com/news/article/California-lawmakers-pass-bill-on-storm-water-fees-12165566.php)
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I think these are the links Hank is referring to:
http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/11/sen-hertzberg-targets-homeowners-with-higher-water-and-sewer-rates/ (http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/11/sen-hertzberg-targets-homeowners-with-higher-water-and-sewer-rates/)
http://www.mrt.com/news/article/California-lawmakers-pass-bill-on-storm-water-fees-12165566.php (http://www.mrt.com/news/article/California-lawmakers-pass-bill-on-storm-water-fees-12165566.php)
Thank you. It's always helpful to be able to read the articles.
It seems to me that flood water is managed by the San Bernardino County Flood Control District. (http://cms.sbcounty.gov/dpw/FloodControl.aspx)
That's separate from the wastewater (sewer) powers of the CSD?
I don't see a fee being charged by the CSD unless the Lahotian(?) Board decides we need to start thinking about a sewer plant and treatment, and I'm pretty sure that's not imminent, at least from what I've read.
That doesn't mean under the new bill that we won't get hit by "fees" from the county, just that it won't be a CSD fee, and the CSD probably won't be able to do much about it.
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That's separate from the wastewater (sewer) powers of the CSD?
The CSD only has Sewer Planning Powers. This is a good idea in case it ever comes to pass that that State will require sewers in Wrightwood. If the State mandates it then the CSD will have a seat at the table in deciding our own fate when it comes to sewers.
The key or potential kickoff for such a mandate would be triggered by nitrates found in one of the Golden State Water wells.. so far that has not happened.
Regards,
--Wes
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I have a problem with a piece of legislation that only requires a majority vote to change a proposition passed by the voters requiring a 2/3 vote.
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Apologies if I am diverting the topic.. Just commenting on some info earlier in the thread.
Yes, the CSD would handle Franchise fees currently paid by CR&R in return for the "exclusive right to handle garbage" in Wrightwood. This is just a way for the CSD to keep the money (8% or some ungodly amount) that CR&R pays to the county now.
It is 10%. That money was going to the County and would go to the CSD as Bob C points out.
Regards,
--Wes
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I have a problem with a piece of legislation that only requires a majority vote to change a proposition passed by the voters requiring a 2/3 vote.
I agree.
As I see it, any "sewer fee" related to flood control would go to San Bernardino County and their flood control district. We'd have to fight that at the County level.
At the CSD level, I don't see anything happening unless/until the regional water quality board sees an issue, and the first part of that (as Wes stated) would be nitrates showing up in the drinking water wells.
We could go ask, but it seems to me that the last thing the CSD wants to do is go into the sewer business. Most of us in the community don't want it, and we don't want the extra taxes.
Perhaps this issue should be outside the CSD section of the forum?
I don't want to minimize the issue, but I don't see it as a CSD issue in the near future.
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I don't want to minimize the issue, but I don't see it as a CSD issue in the near future.
I don't think so either, but I do think it should be in the CSD section. The opinions and info are healthy and can only help. If it ever comes to pass that nitrates appear in the wells, big decisions will have to be made by whomever is on the board at the time will need as much ammo a they can get.
Regards,
--Wes
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We seem to be missing the purpose of the posts. I am trying to call attention to the inclusion of "waste water"--rain--runoff in the sewers powers of the CSD and the use of SB 231 to circumvent the will of Prop 218. The use of SB231 invalidates the 2/3s requirement of Prop 218 and will allow the CSD to use the "initiative process" for increasing and creating additional fees and taxes using a simple majority vote.
BTW What is your definition of "the near future"?
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BTW What is your definition of "the near future"?
Unforeseen or unknowable since the wells keep coming up good.
runoff in the sewers powers of the CSD
The CSD does not have sewer powers. The CSD has Sewer Planning Powers, which again means that the CSD is not involved with the --rain-- runoff issues or anything to do with SB231 or the circumventing that some California legislator is trying to do.
Regards,
--Wes
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We seem to be missing the purpose of the posts. I am trying to call attention to the inclusion of "waste water"--rain--runoff in the sewers powers of the CSD and the use of SB 231 to circumvent the will of Prop 218. The use of SB231 invalidates the 2/3s requirement of Prop 218 and will allow the CSD to use the "initiative process" for increasing and creating additional fees and taxes using a simple majority vote.
BTW What is your definition of "the near future"?
Okay.
It's interesting that rain runoff is being redefined as sewage. The last thing you want to do try to handle those kinds of high flows through a waste water plant.
Wes pointed out that the CSD had powers related to sewer planning (emphasis his). I think I'm up on my reading that there is no requirement for sewers in Wrightwood, and won't be unless nitrates show up in the water. I'd have to go back search forum posts, but this has been a big concern before the CSD, and is now.
You said that the CSD could, through the "initiative process" go after extra taxes and fees. Since initiatives come from the voters at large (Proposition 13 was an initiative) and not from a government body, I think you're thinking of a referendum.
I guess I have more faith in people, but I don't see 50% plus 1 of the voters in Wrightwood voting for a tax or fee unless there is a clear benefit. Seems that we have a good amount of flood control now, and it's not owned or operated by the CSD.
The county could pursue such a tax since the CSD doesn't specifically have anything to do with "flood control sewers" as SB-231 defines them.
For that matter, I'm not sure the county couldn't simply impose a wastewater fee under SB 231.
Since we have initiatives in question, Proposition 218, the "Right to vote on Taxes" act was backed by the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, and as I understand it, does not include the 2/3rds majority requirement. It allows the initiative process to be used by the voters to repeal taxes and fees.
Proposition 218 allows exemptions for Electricity, Gas, Water and Sewer -- we don't get any of those services now from a government agency.
The big question I have with SB 231 is how would (presumably the County of San Bernardino Flood Control District) calculate the value of "flood control service" for each parcel. As I understand Proposition 218, the fee has to reflect the service delivered to a parcel.
Somehow, I see this being litigated sooner rather than later.
So you asked what I saw as the foreseeable future.
Wes said "unforseeable, because there is no sign of a problem" and until nitrates show up, and level rises until the Lahontan Regional Water Quality Board says "gotta plan a sewer, guys" it's fairly moot.
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Currently nitrates are the most prevalent indicator of widely failing septic systems, which is the actual issue that Lahonton has been sitting on for ages. Properly functioning and not overburdened septic systems should contribute minimal nutrients to the water table. The powers that be will only initiate mandatory sewerage if there are indications of a high percentage of the septic systems in Wrightwood failing. That's sort of up to us. If there are enough irresponsible homeowners not properly caring for their septic systems, then we all pay.
The issue of storm water being considered waste water is a relatively new concept in water treatment. The logic began with local entities wanting to "bank" water that fell from the sky and into storm channels by storing it in reservoirs or ground water. Multiple studies later, they realized that the water in storm runoff was polluted to the point of easily meeting the criteria for wastewater. So now, if they want to bank local storm supplies, they'll need to treat it. Treating it costs a lot of money. I think they've gotten the horse before the cart though because current infrastructure can hardly keep up with current demand.
My actual concern is with the desire to make sure everything is done locally. While I appreciate having local authority over things like trash and street lights, sewers are a massively different beast all together. We loose terribly on the economy of scale concept if we ever do need to plan a sewer system. We would need to go out to bid for a contractor to build and operate the system and as a small community would most likely get hosed. I'm just a little confused about what having "local planning authority" would actually buy us except a headache that major metropolitan areas can't even handle. I understand the CSD does not have direct power over sewers but I wonder if anyone really realizes how huge just the planning process would be.
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My actual concern is with the desire to make sure everything is done locally. While I appreciate having local authority over things like trash and street lights, sewers are a massively different beast all together. We loose terribly on the economy of scale concept if we ever do need to plan a sewer system. We would need to go out to bid for a contractor to build and operate the system and as a small community would most likely get hosed. I'm just a little confused about what having "local planning authority" would actually buy us except a headache that major metropolitan areas can't even handle. I understand the CSD does not have direct power over sewers but I wonder if anyone really realizes how huge just the planning process would be.
My understanding is that San Bernardino County CSA #56 had certain responsibilities, and the original plan for a Community Services District was to take four of the five responsibilities ("powers") from CSA 56, leaving them with sewer.
The Local Agency Formation Commission said that those behind the CSD campaign could not cherry pick -- it only made sense if CSA #56 could be dissolved completely.
That's where the sewer planning responsibility came from -- so that CSA 56 would not have to live on against some sewer-inspired future.
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I'm just a little confused about what having "local planning authority" would actually buy us except a headache that major metropolitan areas can't even handle. I understand the CSD does not have direct power over sewers but I wonder if anyone really realizes how huge just the planning process would be.
What LAFCO pointed out was that there was this concern with failing septics in Wrightwood.. what if they did fail and we really did need sewer and the County just decided to come up with some crazy plan without any participation from Wrightwood.. LAFCO thought ahead and built in a way for Wrightwood (and therefore the Wrightwood CSD) to have a seat at the table. To have influence over our own town over this giant decision. I think it was smart, why let someone else with no skin in the game decide for us. It sounds like Sewer Planning might just come in handy should the State mandate sewers in Wrightwood.
Regards,
--Wes
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Thanks Wes. That makes a bit more sense. There's a big difference between sole responsibility for the planning process and just a seat at a planning table filled with other stakeholders. Let's all just hope we don't need sewers. I've been in water and wastewater for 17 years and I can tell everyone, there is no way to even accurately estimate the costs of a project like this. I've never seen a single sewer or wastewater treatment project come in anywhere near budget.
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While this was just introduced by the Biden Administration, our CSD needs to put in on their radar and start doing the legwork with the County and local electeds to apply for a grant to install a sewer system in Wrightwood. Based on my experience, grant notification and applications have short turnaround times and we need to be prepared (i.e., procurement of a consultant to prepare a study outlining costs, benefits, environmental approvals, permits, etc.).
Not having a sewer system is a water quality issue and will ultimately be required by the Regional Water Quality Control Board.
"$56 billion in grants and loans to upgrade and modernize drinking water, wastewater and stormwater systems."
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I regularly test my tap water for aquarium use, and I do see some nitrates in it. Not using a calibrated test kit, so not sure how much, but more than zero (which I do see from my reverse osmosis system).