WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Disaster Awareness & CERT => Topic started by: Wrightwood on Dec 25, 06, 09:22:12 PM
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Wrightwood Fire is at Jackson Lake and there's aprox 150 out on the thin ice. No reports of anyone in the water yet.
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Wrightwood Fire was able to get everyone off the ice. 200-300 surrounding ice waiting waiting people, for fire crews to leave.
LA County Sheriff in route.
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Every year, it seems, we kill one or two at Jackson. My record was 6 in the water through the ice and only me in the squad responding. I called for Air 5's crew to suit up in ice gear to effect a body recovery but all had gotten out by the time I had driven down to the lake.
A big problem is that dry suits and rescue gear is often quite a ways away. There are signs around the lake but no one listens and the Forest Service has no one to enforce it. Sadly, this might be the year we lose some more.
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Darwinism at work
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Darwinism at work
Have you seen Nolena's signature line, "Darwin missed a few"? Sorta fits here. Maybe these were the same 150 that were in Jensen's early this afternoon.... Holy cow! I'm pretty sure that those folks aren't forum members... ;)
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Darwinism at work
Have you seen Nolena's signature line, "Darwin missed a few"? Sorta fits here. Maybe these were the same 150 that were in Jensen's early this afternoon.... Holy cow! I'm pretty sure that those folks aren't forum members... ;)
I don't think they were forum members either...... I wonder if they all think that their snow saucers/sleds double as floatation devices ???
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It is hard to get into their heads & try to comprehend what the heck they are thinkin' or NOT thinkin' I guess to be more appropriate. What bothers me so much is that grown adults / parents whom take their children out on those hazardous conditions.... We are supposed to protect & teach our children... not endanger them & make them think they are invincible!?!?!
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yep - stinkin' thinkin' and WHO do you think pays for their rescue?? You betcha we do.
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Well they are out there again today. Maybe about 15 people on the shallow end. There is also trash all over the lake. This includes tires and trash bags!
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yep - stinkin' thinkin'
you stole that line from Ned Flanders!huh?
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I drove out to get a few photo's for the good folks to see the activity going on.
Below are a few of the high lights:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0028_5x7.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0026_5x7.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0036_5x7.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0040_5x7.jpg)
Now here's a good one. What do you get when you have 5-6 people well over 100 lbs. each within a 6 foot circle? = Stupidity
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0029_5x7.jpg)
And this is my all time favorite. Good O'l Dad dragging jumior into the deep end for that Oh so Kodak moment. It makes you wonder what other wisdom he has in store for his siblings. ::)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0032_5x7.jpg)
Apparently the family is smarter than Dad ;) maybe.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/100_0033_5x7.jpg)
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I never knew so many stupid people played on the ice at Jackson Lake.
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Ya know, instead of a "snowfall" pool, how about a "guess the time/date the 1st person falls thru the ice" pool?
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Whats next stupid people building bonfires out on the thin ice ::)
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they sure are having fun though!
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they sure are having fun though!
Untill little Jr. falls in ;)
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Thanks for the pics, Toolman! I wonder which University of Rocket Science those folks attended? :o
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I found this info online, from the Minnesota Dept of Natural Resources. They should know a thing or two about ice safety:
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/ice/index.html
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Ice safety tips
Before venturing out on a frozen lake or pond keep in mind:
There is no such thing as 100 percent safe ice!
Recommended minimum ice thickness
4" of new clear ice is the minimum thickness for travel on foot
5" is minimum for snowmobiles and ATVs
8"- 12" for cars or small trucks
(Remember that these thicknesses are merely guidelines for new, clear, solid ice. Many factors other than thickness can cause ice to be unsafe.)
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When we went motorcycle riding yesterday at 10AM, there was a marked CHP cruiser sitting by Jackson Lake I'm assuming he was there to warn these highly intelligent folks of the dangers of the ice on the lake.
Darwinism at work...
Peace and stay warm and safe!
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Ya know, instead of a "snowfall" pool, how about a "guess the time/date the 1st person falls thru the ice" pool?
They've had over 10 rescues already :o
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Whats next stupid people building bonfires out on the thin ice ::)
Don't get me started on the bonfire issue. I stopped earlier today at Apple Tree day camp and informed several folks to keep the fire within the ring. One barely English speaking fellow had two 12"x 6' logs placed across the 2' fire ring. Also in his little day fun fest camp I came across a 4" folding style pocket knife laying in the middle of the camp. He said it was broken. I asked him to remove it and put it in his car so he could discard it safely so nearby children wouldn't pick it up. He stared at me and I waited until he complied and he tossed it in his truck bed. I said thank you and mentioned not forget to pick up the beer bottles laying around...have a nice day sir. ;D
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In fairness, if I grew up in the city especially where there is no snow (and had no common sense) and just came up for the day, I might be out there also if I saw other Lemmings doing it too. I mean "it should be ok, if other people are doing it, right?" Especially at the shallow end by the reeds where it's really white and still some snow on top. I understand that there aren't any warning signs about thin ice (?), I wonder why. Have they just not been put up yet or is it not done there???
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Recommended minimum ice thickness
4" of new clear ice is the minimum thickness for travel on foot
I assume Jackson Lake never gets ice that thick .... right?
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I understand that there aren't any warning signs about thin ice (?), I wonder why. Have they just not been put up yet or is it not done there???
I was wondering if we could get the county or some one to make some and get a group to install them.
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I found this info online, from the Minnesota Dept of Natural Resources. They should know a thing or two about ice safety:
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/ice/index.html
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Ice safety tips
Before venturing out on a frozen lake or pond keep in mind:
There is no such thing as 100 percent safe ice!
Recommended minimum ice thickness
4" of new clear ice is the minimum thickness for travel on foot
5" is minimum for snowmobiles and ATVs
8"- 12" for cars or small trucks
(Remember that these thicknesses are merely guidelines for new, clear, solid ice. Many factors other than thickness can cause ice to be unsafe.)
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When we went motorcycle riding yesterday at 10AM, there was a marked CHP cruiser sitting by Jackson Lake I'm assuming he was there to warn these highly intelligent folks of the dangers of the ice on the lake.
Darwinism at work...
Peace and stay warm and safe!
The website doesn't mention underground water movement such as underground springs which the non fozen water is constantly moving. If there is sufficient underground spring activity, the ice is not secure and can cleavage from the below surface flow movement and contributing downforce of weight, ie: people cars, etc. I don't know the geololigical statistics of Jackson Lake but given the plentufull amounts of underground water movement this area has, I certainly wouldn't trust Jackson Lake. I wonder after all these years why simple cheap signs haven't been posted on the post's that exist surrounding the lake with nothing on them. ???
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i wonder if they realize there is a small lake under them.
you've all found your ice skating rink. have a fundraiser for a zamboni, sharpen your skates and let the fun begin.
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I am going to keep my mouth shut on this one. I could really go off right now, but I think toolmans photos speak for themselves.....
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2a/Bob_and_Doug.jpg)
Bob McKenzie: Looks like all good stuff to me eh?
Doug McKenzie: I did notice that most of those hosers didn't have proper toques on.
Bob McKenzie: I give 'em all 5 minutes in the box for only bringing a twelve pack each.
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Trust me. When one goes through the ice and disappears, the demeanor of the group will change dramatically for a moment. By the time Patrol 101 arrives on scene, there will be new groups back out on the ice. The lake has been signed in the past. Unforturnately, there is always a language barrier and it is difficult to communicate the danger adequately to those present....let alone mount any kind of effective rescue. A weekend spent there would be like watching 6 year olds play with loaded and cocked pistols.
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Its more like looking down a double barrel shotgun and saying nothing will happen. There is one pic of what 5 girls standing together thats alot of weight in one spot. That would make me nervous being there and seeing that.
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Trust me. When one goes through the ice and disappears, the demeanor of the group will change dramatically for a moment. By the time Patrol 101 arrives on scene, there will be new groups back out on the ice. The lake has been signed in the past. Unforturnately, there is always a language barrier and it is difficult to communicate the danger adequately to those present....
Thanks, Wildman, I don't think it's funny either. Sure, lots of them should know better, but I still think if you're not at least raised to see the dangers of lake ice on the news if not local to your home, it would be easy to assume that if it's 'frozen' that it's hard enough to walk on, especially if others are doing it as well. And before someone points fingers at particular parts of the world, I think the language barrier would also apply to people visiting from other parts of the world. I saw a lot of people possible from pacific rim countries. If I were visiting from say S. Korea where it's dang cold in the winter and didn't understand the weather here, maybe in that case, I might assume the ice was thicker than it is - or, maybe I would know better from experience, I don't know.
Everyone is smart when they've already know the answer. I'm not a big fan of multilingual signage, etc. but I think such public safety concerns are a good exception. Before someone remarks about them being stolen or defaced, well, that's too bad and the cost of doing business. I make jokes about Darwin, too, but in this case I also think of the rescue personnel that will have the vision forever of the frozen child that they pulled out of the lake.
If posted signage doesn't work, why can't we think smarter and come up with a different idea, after all who looks at the No Parking signs elsewhere anyway? What about those portable electric signs? A flashing sign like that would sure get my attention. Is there a model CHP or CalTrans could park at the lake that could at least flash the warning in english & spanish for starters? Just one thought. Now somebody else come up with another idea and let's see if we can effect some change for this problem. It's a small lake, it should be a small, preventable problem.
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There are signs at Jackson Lake warning of thin ice danger. In my opinion they are too small (kind of like reading the small print). I did mention I thought the signs needed to be larger... But then you get the song and dance that the signs are smaller as they are to be read while standing next to the lake not while driving by at 50+mph.
Although, I am a firm believer of no matter what signage you use... blinking portable signs... etc most folks disreguard them or they figure they do not pertain to them. I do speak to 1,000s of people about signs almost everyday & I am beginning to think that there are alot of people out there that are totally brain dead :( What I am wondering most lately is... How do these people get through life?!?!? I mean heck even when there are f.s. fire, leo's, county fire & SAR on PA systems telling folks to get off of the ice... they still totally ignore them! I took videos of people sledding from way up on the mountain above Jackson Lake onto the lake on 12/31/06 . I said to my husband "I'll bet these people think we are videoing them because we think they are cool... not because we think they are totally STUPID!"
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When it comes to signage, you need to remember that over 10% of California's population is illiterate. Of the thousands who visit our forests every day, one it ten would not be able to read any type of sign.
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I can't read the text but the picture sure makes a statement.
(http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/img/2004_05/hukkumisvaara.jpg)
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Is there a picture on the current sign?
(http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/images/safety/winter/thin_ice.gif)
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I agree that we should have signs with universally readable pictures on them. People who live in warmer climates have no experience with ice and think if you can step on it without it cracking, it is fine to walk on. We are more cautious because we know our winters here are freeze and thaw, but if we were in Minnesota and saw people skating or walking on a frozen lake, we would probably think it was safe also.
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I never knew so many stupid people played on the ice at Jackson Lake.
looks like the same crowed of people who would shoot a gun in the air.
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I can't read the text but the picture sure makes a statement.
(http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/img/2004_05/hukkumisvaara.jpg)
the sign says "beware of zombies"
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Maybe we could use explosive devices every morning to break up the ice????
;D
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That would make the fishing a whole lot easier. ;)
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People who live in warmer climates have no experience with ice and think if you can step on it without it cracking, it is fine to walk on.
So with that being said, I guess we are to believe that an eskimo will unknowingly go skipping his way into a hot bed of molten lava!
Liz, I really admire your idealism that there is no such thing as a stupid person.... ::)
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Although, I am a firm believer of no matter what signage you use... blinking portable signs... etc most folks disreguard them or they figure they do not pertain to them.
Maybe an improvement in the system could at least save people who are ignorant of the danger even if we can't save those who really are stupid, know better, and do it anyway. As far as ignoring signs, seems to me there should be an impact difference in ignoring a parking sign on the off chance that they might get a ticket vs. freezing to death in the lake. I often have low expectations of 'the public' too, believe you me, but maybe here's somewhere worthwhile to at least do a trial of something better. Toolman remarked to me that the flashing signs are expensive to operate. On the chance that they make an improvement if not a solution, maybe the cost would be offset by less trash in the lake when it melts, of course that's probably a different budget entity, I dunno. I like the picture signs that people have posted, too. Have to say I agree with breezy and not management about them being of decent size.
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So with that being said, I guess we are to believe that an eskimo will unknowingly go skipping his way into a hot bed of molten lava!
You don't really believe that's a similar example, do you? Frozen ice is much more a hidden danger than glowing molten lava, usually with flames in it, not to mention the intense heat you'd feel getting remotely near it. Maybe you were trying to be funny?
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When I was a freshman in HS a neighbor fell in the ice and looked to be drowning. His dog went in after him and there were the two of them in the water splashing. I had no choice in my inexperienced mind, if I went for help for sure they would be dead. I went in after them. I was at the time a Sr. Lifesaver and knew it could have meant the end of me. As I went to get them sprawled out on the ice, the ice gave underneath me. Splash, all the coldness I could want all over me. I immediately realized I was only chest deep and got them both out. The boy was in such panic mode I couldn't tell he was in such shallow water. I know it was a silly move but I was young and careless. An event like this on Jackson Lake could result in a serious chain event.
My lampooning was just a polite way to point at ignorance; I myself have been guilty of being on "thin ice" most of my life. Just ask my wife.
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So with that being said, I guess we are to believe that an eskimo will unknowingly go skipping his way into a hot bed of molten lava!
Maybe you were trying to be funny?
Yes, trying...... :-\
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Signs in Enlish and Spanish won't work either. I think research into what appropriate Korean picture would work along with a sign in Korean might help. I didn't see too many Hispanics in those pictures.
The Forest Service could also help by issuing citations to all those without the proper day use pass. When I last went to Jackson Lake there were signs requiring the pass. I just wonder how many had passes?
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Eeesh. Looking at those photos reminds of the pictures of tourists in Thailand, wandering out to look at the freaky low water levels right before the tsunami hit.
Like this one: http://www.wavescape.co.za/top_bar/tidings/Oneoffs/Tsunami04/tsunami04_railaysequence.htm
Good lord.
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Signs in Enlish and Spanish won't work either. I think research into what appropriate Korean picture would work along with a sign in Korean might help. I didn't see too many Hispanics in those pictures.
The Forest Service could also help by issuing citations to all those without the proper day use pass. When I last went to Jackson Lake there were signs requiring the pass. I just wonder how many had passes?
Your absolutely correct, the FS could issue NNC's to those parked in no parking zones and without adventure passes. The problem is, FS doesn't have the staffing and they cover many miles of territory and can not possibly cite enough violators to make an impact on the population we had this weekend. Hopefully this situation can be remedied in the near future.
Additionally, during my ventures to the snow play areas, 90% of the population spreading their cheer where Hispanics. When I was at Apple Tree yesterday not one vehicle had an Adventure pass and I'd guess 60-70 vehicles were parked there. At approx. 5 minutes to write an NNC without interruption, :-\ do the math on how long it would take one person to write up 60 violators.
I mentioned previuosly I spoke to the CHP officer desperately trying to enforce traffic at Mtn. High of the Lake issue. He placed a call and it may have done some good. Today two new signs were installed with more to come soon. One on the north end along Big Pines Hwy and the other in the parking area to the south. These signs were not there yesterday.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/MikeWorshum/Jackson%20Lake/thinice.jpg)
I spent the day shooting some weekend aftermath photo's and once uploaded I'll post them.
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is the freezing of the lake an annual event?
how thick do you think the ice is?
i have to admit, it looks tempting to walk across.
sledding liquored up in the 1970's down the icy street from the top of acorn all the way past our lady of the snows until it levels off by highway 2 without a helmut on a dime store sled was unbelievably stupid as well. and i seriously do not recommend doing this. however, still one of my favorite top twenty memories of all time.
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How about having the FS break up the ice along the edges so there is no access onto the lake?
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Now that is one of the better ideas I have heard in a while. Take a small rowboat and work your way around the lake with a light sledge or axe.
As far as how thick it can get, there was a winter around ten years ago when we trained PCF's on ice rescue with borrowed dry suits. We had to use a chain saw in the middle of the lake to cut through around 4 inches of ice. That was in the dead of winter with four feet of snow on the ground. I can only imagine how decadent the ice must be with the only semi-cold temps we have been getting.
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I was actually surprised to see that thick of ice at all on the lake. I can imagine when we get a warm spell and it starts to thaw out, sometimes unpredictably. The right combination of conditions can make a seemingly safe spot the first to go, as has been proven many times up in the real ice country.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/wwpt/aaabbb.jpg)
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How about having the FS break up the ice along the edges so there is no access onto the lake?
Why the forest service? Why not The BostonBob Company ??? ;D
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I spoke with Toolman a number of times today and he said you could see the water flowing under the ice so it's not thick.
I was actually surprised to see that thick of ice at all on the lake. I can imagine when we get a warm spell and it starts to thaw out, sometimes unpredictably. The right combination of conditions can make a seemingly safe spot the first to go, as has been proven many times up in the real ice country.
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I am grateful to one of the Grassy Hollow Volunteers whom came into Big Pines to staff the counter while I went out with another volunteer to write NNC's. We just walked from Big Pines out toward Mtn High East. We hit about 75 cars & yes toolman you are right the interruptions are MANY! I got to the point where, when the people would come running up to me with their notice... I'd say can you read? They'd say Yes... I'd say well read the directions! I am very busy at the moment! Another thing that ended up consuming valuable time is that a man tried to run me over (I won't mention his ethnicity) & also tried to hit my rig. He also drove away without his 3 small children!!! So, that was all it took to really screw up what was... a productive day of NNC writing. :(
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I assume that a NNC is a Notice of Non Compliance.
What is the penalty involved?
Is it enforced?
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I am happy to report... for the time being anyhow....
This a.m. I went by Jackson Lake @ 6:30 a.m. & a good part of it was UNFROZEN :D There was even some die hard fishermen there fishin' already lol I hope if they can clearly see water on the majority of the lake... not ice that might make a "light" go off in their head & they will realize it truly is unsafe. We'll see.... I am NOT gonna hold my breath though!
btw... wrong topic area but B.P Hwy was a very icy drive.
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Now would be the time to break up the ice so there is no access onto the lake.
I am happy to report... for the time being anyhow....
This a.m. I went by Jackson Lake @ 6:30 a.m. & a good part of it was UNFROZEN :D There was even some die hard fishermen there fishin' already lol I hope if they can clearly see water on the majority of the lake... not ice that might make a "light" go off in their head & they will realize it truly is unsafe. We'll see.... I am NOT gonna hold my breath though!
btw... wrong topic area but B.P Hwy was a very icy drive.
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Now would be the time to break up the ice so there is no access onto the lake.
Yea...no kidding....Cal Trans has the boom-sticks to git'r done. ;)
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Maybe Mountain Hardware could start selling Velcro Jackets with Ropes attached.
That way, when the Diaper people fall into the lake, as they are dragged out by their friends (hopefully not tied to the bumper of their car) the velcro can dredge the diapers, trash can lids and McDonalds trash out of the lake. ;-)