Burnover

[RennMan]

This is a photo essay about firefighters working the Santiago fire.

http://www.latimes.com/la-burnover-f,0,732907.flash?coll=la-home-center

[cabindweller]

Wow that is amazing to see what these guys go through! 

[Wrightwood]

Orange County October 2007 fire crews are over run due to a spot fire and forced to deploy fire shelters.

<a href="http://www.wrightwoodfsc.com/video/burn.swf" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.wrightwoodfsc.com/video/burn.swf</a>

[Hobbes]

Every fire fighter who works brush fires are supposed to learn the 18 elements that shout "Watch Out"  here are several of those eighteen that this crew did not comply with, which begs the question why?:

   Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
   Constructing line without safe anchor point.
   Building line with fire below.
   Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
   Wind increases and/or changes direction.
   Getting frequent spot fires across line.
   Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.

Fighting fire is dangerous enough, but professionals and volunteers alike must learn about fire behavior, conditions and be aware of their surroundings.  This near catastrophe could have been avoided altogether if even one of the twelve had spoken up and complied with these watch outs.  One person missing the signs and getting caught like this is bad enough,  But twelve all missing these basic signs indicates more training is needed.

While I feel compassion for these fire fighter's who nearly lost their lives; I am also distressed that these poor tactics occur all the time, instead of safer, more effective fire attacks.

[All Day, All Night]

I couldn't agree with you more! The second and fifth photo in the photo essay says it all. What are they doing going up that ridge anyway with a spot fire behind them? And best of all, what were they trying to protect by going up that ridge? There is clearly a road in the direction that the fire was burning. I'm sure they could have made a stop as the fire approached the road with what appears to be a full strike team (could only see 2 rigs in the shot). We were amazed at the shot that made the cover of the LA Times, but after the photo essay came out everyone at the station had one word in our minds...WHY?

From what I have experienced, the OCFA is a great agency but the department lacks in a lot of resources including air support, dozer's and crews, not to mention better training at the wildland level. I think anyone that wants to be a firefighter would do themselves a great service by becoming an FSA, hot shot crew, etc...

[Firemn41]

I heard from a guy that was part of the investigation team that the crews were doing a hose lay to knock down a spot that spotted across their line. They got to the top and had a blown stick hose and then got a spot fire down below them.

[FSfirefighter]

To second guess or criticize other firefighters is only a natural reaction to our "ability to be replaced" by those who think they know how to do better, but have never experienced the challenge or personal sacrifices.

I'd hope folks who seem to be either firefighters, or firefighter educated, look beyond the 10 and 18 when they offer very ignorant posts in regards to the fire family, wildland fire, and the goals for lessons learned.

Once you lose a friend(s), the story takes a dramatic turn and the true lessons are learned and fully appreciated.

[BPSquirrel]

To second guess or criticize other firefighters is only a natural reaction to our "ability to be replaced" by those who think they know how to do better, but have never experienced the challenge or personal sacrifices.

I'd hope folks who seem to be either firefighters, or firefighter educated, look beyond the 10 and 18 when they offer very ignorant posts in regards to the fire family, wildland fire, and the goals for lessons learned.

Once you lose a friend(s), the story takes a dramatic turn and the true lessons are learned and fully appreciated.

Very well said FSFirefighter.
 Unless you have lived the life of a Wildland Firefighter, all you can do is pass an opinion. As my husband says (and he has 30 years of experience fighting WL Fires) every situation is different, every fire is different. So until you have actually lived it, be considerate in your opinions. If you would like an insight of what our guys and gals are going through on a daily basis, how they feel about  a large number of topics, go here
http://wildlandfire.com/

[Hobbes]

In this case, it is not a matter of second guessing and it would have been tragic if the lesson had to be learned from the loss of twelve fire fighters.  Take a close look, if you can't see the warning signs in this situation before they even laid a line, then its time for you to go back and study wildland fire basics.

And thanks for making my point, fire education should not go out the window during the "excitement" of engaging in fire fighting operations; and fire fighter's owe it to their families to use correct tactics even when tempted to act recklessly.

I understand your embarrassment and hurt feelings over this criticism, but sometimes that is what is necessary to enact change.

[All Day, All Night]

To second guess or criticize other firefighters is only a natural reaction to our "ability to be replaced" by those who think they know how to do better, but have never experienced the challenge or personal sacrifices.

I'd hope folks who seem to be either firefighters, or firefighter educated, look beyond the 10 and 18 when they offer very ignorant posts in regards to the fire family, wildland fire, and the goals for lessons learned.

Once you lose a friend(s), the story takes a dramatic turn and the true lessons are learned and fully appreciated.

I understand what you are saying, and agree with it wholeheartedly. Then again, comments like these happen all day long at firehouses all across the country. Questions like "How can we avoid this situation" and "What can we learn about this incident" are all regular talk around the table during line-up. Its no different than what Hobbes was posting as a reply to the original poster. It seems that there are a few firefighters that visit this forum and talk like this will happen. To come on here and state that people commenting here have "never experienced" is wrong. I'm sure you tossed this very topic at the station and came up with similar conclusions. I did my time at the camps and am very happy just being called out on a strike team every so often.

I can give you a good insight on whats on the mind of a wildland firefighter today: "Did you take the KCFD test last week", "What did you score on the LAFD test", When does your tower class start at Klinger?" Most of them are just awaiting for the call to make more money with a county or city agency. Thats a fact! Just check on the attrition that the USFS is having...

See you at the next one and remember your 10 and 18!

[FSfirefighter]

In this case, it is not a matter of second guessing and it would have been tragic if the lesson had to be learned from the loss of twelve fire fighters.  Take a close look, if you can't see the warning signs in this situation before they even laid a line, then its time for you to go back and study wildland fire basics.

Question: Do you think the perspective of the firefighters on the hill differs significantly from the views that you (and the public sees) through the eyes of a news photographer sitting on the road without being there to feel, hear, smell, and see? Do you think they (those on the hill) saw the warning signs?

There has been research on Human Factors and their effects on firefighter cognitive ability dating back to 1956. One common theme dating back to 1956 was that while firefighters love monday morning quarter backing with information that was collected in hindsight and saying "It will never happen to me" because I'm "too good", "I focus on safety", or any other countless myriad of reasons.

Having survived a burnover on the Blackwell-Corral Fire in 1994, and working with the families of fallen firefighters since 2003, and having 26 years as a wildland firefighter.... I know a little on the basics and don't think I need "to go back and study...".

[All Day, All Night]

Come on now, we all have to continuously study... Its part of the job. If not, we become complacent and that leads to injuries or worse. I don't have the 20+ years on the job to become salty and not have to go over the basics any more...

I can't count how many incidents where we got a hold of some film or tape and see the mistakes we made and how we could have done it better. Its all a part of it. I do agree that sometimes in the heat of the battle you might loose sight of a thing or two, but the guy in photo 5 of the essay should have warned the boys ahead of him about the spot fire that just started feet's behind him...

Drill like your life depends on it... because it does!

[FSfirefighter]

Come on now, we all have to continuously study... Its part of the job.

 

Drill like your life depends on it... because it does!

 

Folks I know who were on the scene (also looking from below) said they could have walked down to the road through the black to where the photographer was, and avoided deployment all together.... but we weren't in their shoes at time of the incident or knowing what was going on in their minds.

For Hobbes, the 18 Watchout Situations are not "elements" of safety, but triggers that should enhance situational awareness and decision making. They were intended to be educational cues to relate to why the "hair stands up on the back of some older firefighters necks".

Hobbes, you'll probably agree if you look at the old cartoon depictions we used to use to depict the differences between the 10 and 18. All of the cartoons had a small caption in the doodle depicting either a red, yellow, or green light in a traffic signal.

Mark Gleason challenged all wildland firefighters to "... Be a student of fire."

[All Day, All Night]

Good topic guys. I really like to hear what everyone has to say.

FSfirefighter, I'll gladly do structure protection with you any day! Cutting line is a whole other story. Not that young anymore. I'll leave that to the dozers and the young billy goats. I'll stick to running 75% band aide calls, 20% ALS and 5% fires (Its the 5% that keeps me working at busy stations).

With that said, I wish you all a safe upcoming fire season and Im off to bed cause Im working tomorrow and working 3 straight. Hopefully the natives aren't too restless tomorrow night...

[Hobbes]

Do you think they (those on the hill) saw the warning signs?

I know a little on the basics and don't think I need "to go back and study...

Folks I know who were on the scene (also looking from below) said they could have walked down to the road through the black to where the photographer was, and avoided deployment all together....

"... Be a student of fire."

Thank you for reiterating many of my points for me.

[FSfirefighter]

Hobbes said,

Thank you for reiterating many of my points for me.

What were your points?

[clint]

It seems we have to qualify our right to post on this particular topic, so for starters I have been there done that and got the T-shirt. When Hobbes first posted I said a quiet "right on". Those fire fighters had no business being where they were. Back in '77 our crew did'nt get burned up because a crusty old foreman disobeyed an order and refused to put us where he knew fire would burn. Thank you Roy Futter where ever you are.

And  the10 & 18 have always contained contradictions.

But of more interest to me in the report is the radio audio. The pictures are dramatic, but if that crew had been burned over, the radio traffic would have been blamed. A helicopter was requested because "we have a crew deploying on the ridge" And the IC replied that none was available. Clearly he thought they were requesting a suppression resource when he said a strike team had been ordered and he would check with OPS (operations under the ICS system) for air support, it had not been made clear to him that a crew was in danger. Finally when the engine captain said a crew was "deplying shelters" the IC's voice went up two octaves and only then did he understand!

If Wag Dodge had had more time to communicate to his crew why he was lighting grass at his feet. The whole crew may have been saved.

If the weather report had been communicated to overhaed and crews on South Canyon, 10 Prineville Hotshots and 4 Smokejumpers might have ben saved.

Time and time again communications breakdowns cost lives and more focus needs to placed on this.

[All Day, All Night]

I cant wait till the next fire season!!!

[FSfirefighter]

Clint,

I really appreciate your perspective. I agree fully that communication is key to safety.... especially willingness to communicate.

What folks don't hear is that the video (audio) perspective and portrayal was severely edited for effect, often omitting much of the value as a discussion tool for wildland firefighter safety.

Unfortunately, some of the best lessons learned from the past are being trumped by the "information super-highway".