WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Wrightwood CSD Topics => Topic started by: Al Morrissette on Mar 02, 19, 08:54:28 PM
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Did everyone notice that the One Town at a Time is asking the CSD to write a letter of support, so they can build electric generating windmills on the ridges around town?
Look about half way down, starting with the 24th page of the document:
https://wrightwoodcsd.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/regular-Board-Meeting-Packet-march-5-2019.pdf (https://wrightwoodcsd.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/regular-Board-Meeting-Packet-march-5-2019.pdf)
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Interesting. So even though the CSD has no control over this process, it could be construed that the CSD represents the town/village in regards to supporting or not supporting the windmill venture. My questions and comments:
- Would the CSD (and indirectly the town) receive any clear benefit from providing a letter of support? If not, why would the CSD feel they need to provide a letter of support? Goodwill between entities aside, would the CSD provide letters of support to other non-profits when asked? This could be setting a precedent.
- Would the power generated by this/these windmills help with power outages like we've had recently in town? I thought SCE did a lot of upgrades, and we didn't lose power with that last storm, which was super strong.
- Who would get these electric cars? What other sustainability measures might be implemented?
- I'm not against green energy. But I probably have that "not in my backyard" attitude if you can see or hear it from my home.
- I'm concerned that once you receive approval for one or more, then it may expand beyond what might be ideal visually for this town.
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And as I read the proposed letter on CSD letterhead... "generating electricity to be sold to SCE"... is not the same as what the letter says. The letter makes it seem like this would provide "...a solution amid continuous disruption in electrical servicing in the community". How would generating more power solve the outages? The outages were not due to a shortage of electricity. I don't have an engineering mind, so maybe I'm missing something?
Again, not against green energy. Just not sure where these windmills would be on our ridges...
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Exactly KW! And you watch... many people will start asking "does this mean no more electric bills for me?"
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The beginning of exactly what I predicted and why I voted against the CSD formation. Not surprised at all. Not against green energy either, but all for transparency.
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What is a Sunshine Ordinance?
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Sunshine laws are regulations requiring openness in government or business. Sunshine laws make meetings, records, votes, deliberations and other official actions available for public observation, participation and/or inspection.
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- Would the power generated by this/these windmills help with power outages like we've had recently in town? I thought SCE did a lot of upgrades, and we didn't lose power with that last storm, which was super strong.
This is the part that bothers me.
If the outages are between the substation and the customer, then a redundant feed at the substation won't help that problem.
The last outage we had (west of Acorn on Edna) was a pole or transformer issue at Cedar and Edna. The substation had power.
That's just one example, but I think a proper study would show that most outages happen between the substation and our homes.
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This piece discusses San Bernardino County limiting large solar projects. It is tangentially relevant to this discussion.
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-san-bernardino-solar-renewable-energy-20190228-story.html
The points made previously in this thread address the fact that the proposed project would not address service disruptions as claimed. There are no supporting materials to substantiate the revenue claim or that a wind study supports the concept.
I recall the discussion about this or a similar concept when WW was considering its CSD. I'm not in WW or the jurisdiction of its CSD. I do support communities looking at what can be done at the local level to enhance passive energy production to offset carbon emissions, etc. At this point, you're being asked for a letter of support for a project that may or may not be a good idea. I'd want to answer that question before I supported it moving forward. Cheryl o7o
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The letter from 2011 is pretty darning, and I can't imagine what has changed -- the geography sure hasn't. Why are they pushing it again now?
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Why are they pushing it again now?
My opinion? District ranger Blount has since passed away, and the new CSD has One Town supporters on the board
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Sunshine laws are regulations requiring openness in government or business. Sunshine laws make meetings, records, votes, deliberations and other official actions available for public observation, participation and/or inspection.
In this specific case it is on the Agenda in order to possibly change the standard meeting time, which is now 7pm on the first Tuesday of the month. There was some concern about the start time from one of the board members about that start time and wanting to move it to sometime earlier in the evening. In order to move the standard meeting time the Sunshine ordinance would need to be modified.
Although it may seem cumbersome the Sunshine laws are designed to shed light on these official decisions, mundane as they might be. :)
Regards,
--Wes
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If the outages are between the substation and the customer, then a redundant feed at the substation won't help that problem.
Sometimes they are and sometimes it is from secondary feed going down at the substation. At least that's what I understood in listening to SCE give their presentation in a meeting right before a CSD meeting.
Regards,
--Wes
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Sometimes they are and sometimes it is from secondary feed going down at the substation. At least that's what I understood in listening to SCE give their presentation in a meeting right before a CSD meeting.
Regards,
--Wes
Hi Wes,
When the power is out for a while, I get bored, and I go looking for the trucks. It's either that or sit in a cold house.
The most recent outage at our house had SCE working on a pole at Cedar and Edna.
I don't know if SCE produces a "Reason for Outage" document of some kind, but it'd tell us if the problem is at the substation or beyond it.
I think we should know what the problem is before a fix is proposed.
-- Lynn
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Exactly KW! And you watch... many people will start asking "does this mean no more electric bills for me?"
Let's face it, electricity is going up seemingly everyday. I know that SCE is intent on upgrading their network of failing poles in high fire danger areas so they can avoid the PG&E scenario.
More than ever we are dependent on electricity, finding more efficient and less impactful ways of generating it are in all of our best interests, I think there is no question that we can agree on that. I see no end in sight for SCE raising their prices.. the San Francisco centered PUC in will go along with whatever SCE says.
I wish we could all decide to all put solar on our roofs, but we love our trees also.. we must get the electricity generated elsewhere delivered to us. Right now there is no competition at all, only SCE and what they decide. I would prefer competition as it does wonders in solving so many problems exactly like this one.
Regards,
--Wes
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Wes, do you feel the proposed letter of support accurately reflects the reason for the project? If the board chooses to proceed with it's recommendation, can the letter be edited to state that it is the voice of the CSD board and not necessarily the community? Although I thought the CSD is supposed to represent the community....
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Wes, do you feel the proposed letter of support accurately reflects the reason for the project? If the board chooses to proceed with its recommendation, can the letter be edited to state that it is the voice of the CSD board and not necessarily the community? Although I thought the CSD is supposed to represent the community....
I don't have any reason to doubt the accuracy or the intentions of the letter, unless I'm missing something (always possible).
The elected board does represent the community by definition. It's a given that some of the community agree and some disagree.
Regards,
--Wes
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Wes, the letter states that the project would solve the outage problems. How can that be accurate? And how can the board be working in the best interests of the community when we don't have much information, such as location of the project? Unless you have more information than what has been made public?
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Wes, the letter states that the project would solve the outage problems. How can that be accurate? And how can the board be working in the best interests of the community when we don't have much information, such as location of the project? Unless you have more information than what has been made public?
I really don't know anything about this project other than what is in the letter, and I didn't know any of the past history of this project either.
Since there is no cost to the CSD and to Wrightwood I don't see the downside, but please explain your objections to it, maybe I'm missing something.
I happen to like the idea of harnessing nature and consider machines that generate electricity like this beautiful - Now it would be very nice if it were hooked into a battery but that's another story.
I'm not bothered by where it might be located, but it sounds like you are. Can you tell me more about why you might object to where it is located?
Wes, the letter states that the project would solve the outage problems
I don't know if it would solve the outage problems but that part didn't bother me.
Regards,
--Wes
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I really don't know anything about this project other than what is in the letter, and I didn't know any of the past history of this project either.
When you say "I really don't know anything about this project other than what is in the letter", are you referring to the One Town letter, or the letter of support you intend to sign?
If you are referring to One Town's letter, then with all due respect, that's exactly the point! You don't have any business signing a letter of support with the words that are on that letter of support, since you admit not knowing anything except what's in their letter. The letter of support does make it clear that you think this project will somehow be a solution to outages.
If you are referring to your letter of support when you say "I really don't know anything about this project other than what is in the letter", then please tell us how this project would fix the problem of "continuous disruption in electrical servicing"?
I've also posted the history of this project earlier in this thread. Yesterday, I submitted a letter addressed to the CSD, which I sent to Al M. I trust you will all get it. If not, let me know and I'll submit it directly to you.
I'm sorry, but I still feel it's a conflict of interest for current sitting CSD members, who are employees of One town, to discuss or vote on this issue tonight. Yea, ok, I get it.. It's just a letter. You're not award a contract or anything. But it still looks like a conflict of interest.
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When you say "I really don't know anything about this project other than what is in the letter", are you referring to the One Town letter, or the letter of support you intend to sign?
The context of the question was: Do I know anything about this project beyond what is public or discussed elsewhere. The answer is No.
The letter of support does make it clear that you think this project will somehow be a solution to outages.
That's just one part of the letter. I don't think it is necessary to have it solve outages to be a good idea. I think clean alternative energy sources are a good idea by themselves.
Yesterday, I submitted a letter addressed to the CSDI'll look for the letter.
I'm sorry, but I still feel it's a conflict of interest for current sitting CSD members, who are employees of One town, to discuss or vote on this issue tonight
We have a great attorney, and I will ask.
Regards,
--Wes
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Yesterday, I submitted a letter addressed to the CSD
I'll look for the letter.
Thanks Wes... I'll email it to your UIA address now. I'm just never in a position where I'm in town during meetings, so hopefully things like these written letters I submit, can be read into the record as if I was there to read it during public comment.
Also, I did a little checking... turns out that in late 2010, the MAC decided NOT to write a letter of support. It wasn't because of anything good or bad presented to us by One Town, but we decided we really didn't like writing letters of support for private businesses, and we didn't want to start a new precedent. Besides, One Town already had another letter of support from then Supervisor Mitzefelt, so we felt they didn't need ours.
At least back then in 2010, One Town showed up to the MAC to make a sales presentation. That hasn't happened with this CSD thing. At the very least, One Town should make a presentation to the CSD (which really means, to the public) before asking the CSD (again, representing the public they serve) to throw support toward a project. Without that public request, how did this end up so quietly on the agenda? Was there non-public/non-open meetings between board members?
My advise: Table this support letter. Make One Town show up to a public CSD meeting and present their sales pitch, just like they did back in 2010 when they made a presentation to the MAC. Then, the CSD can decide whether or not to offer a letter of support. Since the CSD represents the public, take the public's attitude toward this, before deciding whether or not to write that letter of support. And again, I'm not even sure agencies like the CSD should ever write letters of support for private enterprises like this, but if you're going to, at least make the process public, and get the citizens involved.
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Suggestion: You might also ask for the background materials from SCE that are mentioned in the cover letter. The Trump Administration has promulgated new rules for uses on National Forest Land. I don't know the status of those rules.
The WCSD Board can certainly ask One Town if they have addressed the issues raised in the National Forest response to the previous request. And, if so, how they were addressed.
The letter from One Town states they want to explore the possibility of such a project. It may well turn out to be a great project that is beneficial to the community. Community input at this stage will help guide One Town as they move forward with their feasibility study. A letter of encouragement to do so and a request for regular updates as to the status of the project will keep the community informed.
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Since there is no cost to the CSD and to Wrightwood I don't see the downside, but please explain your objections to it, maybe I'm missing something.
I'm not bothered by where it might be located, but it sounds like you are. Can you tell me more about why you might object to where it is located?
I don't know if it would solve the outage problems but that part didn't bother me.
Regards,
--Wes
Wes, I have several concerns and all very similar to Bob C. You say "since there is no cost to the CSD and to Wrightwood I don't see the downside". Are you talking about monetary cost? What about other or indirect costs? And just because something is "free", that doesn't make it good or right. And without knowing anything other than what's in the letter, you are assuming that there is no cost of any kind.
Regarding location, I am concerned because some people think these are an eyesore, others think they are loud, but maybe this one will be silent and beautiful. But WE DON'T KNOW. And I don't see how you can properly represent the town when you admit you don't know many details of this project. Signing a letter of support for a private entity when you don't even have details is a scary precedent. What comes next?
I like alternative forms of energy. But I want to know what we are getting into first, don't you? Let's table this letter and have One Town representatives explain their project. I certainly can keep an open mind. I know it will be difficult because many people won't have an open mind, but that's why we try to do research and gain knowledge and educate everyone - so an educated decision can be made.
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That's just one part of the letter. I don't think it is necessary to have it solve outages to be a good idea. I think clean alternative energy sources are a good idea by themselves.
If it's going to solve outages, it really should be close to our substation.
If the purpose is clean alternative energy, then the exact location is less important -- it just needs to be close to a substation and in an area with a lot of wind. It could also be solar in a sunny area that's free of snow.
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Wes, I have several concerns and all very similar to Bob C. You say "since there is no cost to the CSD and to Wrightwood I don't see the downside". Are you talking about monetary cost? What about other or indirect costs? And just because something is "free", that doesn't make it good or right. And without knowing anything other than what's in the letter, you are assuming that there is no cost of any kind.
Yes, that's right. If there is evidence to the contrary that's totally fine, I would like to hear about it.
Regarding location, I am concerned because some people think these are an eyesore, others think they are loud, but maybe this one will be silent and beautiful. But WE DON'T KNOW. And I don't see how you can properly represent the town when you admit you don't know many details of this project. Signing a letter of support for a private entity when you don't even have details is a scary precedent. What comes next?
I don't feel they are an eye sore at all but beauty is in the eye of the beholder as you say.
how did this end up so quietly on the agenda? Was there non-public/non-open meetings between board members?
This doesn't feel very quiet :) But no, no meetings or anything.. that's what the CSD meetings are for, to discuss it openly. I don't know what the rest of the board thinks yet for example.
Let's table this letter and have One Town representatives explain their project
Might be ok, let's see what the board says. I'm just one vote keep in mind..
Sorry if I am late in my replies.. trying to keep up along with a busy work day.
Regards,
--Wes
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My advise: Table this support letter. Make One Town show up to a public CSD meeting and present their sales pitch, just like they did back in 2010 when they made a presentation to the MAC. Then, the CSD can decide whether or not to offer a letter of support. Since the CSD represents the public, take the public's attitude toward this, before deciding whether or not to write that letter of support. And again, I'm not even sure agencies like the CSD should ever write letters of support for private enterprises like this, but if you're going to, at least make the process public, and get the citizens involved.
Ok, thank you.
--Wes
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Thanks Wes... I'll email it to your UIA address now. I'm just never in a position where I'm in town during meetings, so hopefully things like these written letters I submit, can be read into the record as if I was there to read it during public comment.
I generally don't like doing this as it just doesn't convey the same passion or import as you actually being there.. it makes a difference. But I understand.
Regards,
--Wes
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WES..."We have a great attorney...and that is WHO? Your One Town President? He's an attorney..
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WES..."We have a great attorney...and that is WHO? Your One Town President? He's an attorney..
No no no! The CSD has an attorney present at all meetings... Steve Kennedy. He's also the attorney for the PPHCSD as I recall
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Steve Kennedy. He's also the attorney for the PPHCSD as I recall
Thanks Bob, yes it is Steve Kennedy. Very knowledgeable and competent. And yes the attorney for PPHCSD, and Helendale as well.
Regards,
--Wes
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Yup, Steve seems to be a good person. His job is to keep the CSD on the straight and narrow, and shuffle required legal documents as needed. He'll make sure Brown Act and things like that are followed. He's hired by the CSD, but is impartial, and has no stake in this windmill discussion
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Whew...glad we got that clarified, Thank you.
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Thanks Wes... I'll email it to your UIA address now. I'm just never in a position where I'm in town during meetings, so hopefully things like these written letters I submit, can be read into the record as if I was there to read it during public comment.
I generally don't like doing this as it just doesn't convey the same passion or import as you actually being there.. it makes a difference. But I understand.
Regards,
--Wes
But you were willing to allow One Town to do the very same thing, by submitting paper for you to act upon without being at the meeting in person!
I understand the issue was tabled pending more information. That was the best way to handle this.
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Good, I'm glad it was at least tabled.
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In the future could everyone please post items and comments regarding this project on the two Wrightwood Facebook pages in addition to the Forum.
That would be The Real Wrightwood page and the Wrightwood page with combined members of 10,000. This promotional avenue is another way to reach out to our community whose input is needed on this topic and all CSD issues.
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You can also just post the link to this discussion on the other pages. I've done that on Next Door for some of the crime issues like the picture of that guy from yesterday. It's easier than reconstructing a post multiple times.
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Audio March 5, 2019 WCSD Board Meeting
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/CSD/WCSD.3.5.19.MP3
Index (recording minutes of time)
03:38 to 20:40 Public comments
30:04 to 80:08 Support letter wind energy project
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RE: Posting Link
It won't provide the visual needed to spark interest as much as a copy and paste of the post.
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Thanks for posting the audio.
Why does One Town need CSD support to explore? Why not explore, present the details to CSD, and then ask for support? Is someone stopping them from doing the studies?
It looks like their estimate on how much money they can get selling power is several years old. I've heard stories recently that Southern California is over-producing power on sunny days now due to solar adoption and "peak pricing" hours might switch to promote using more power during the day. This makes me think there may be less demand for purchasing electricity and less money to be made. Would be nice to get a current quote from SCE on what that power is worth.
Also, in the letter they asked CSD to sign, they mentioned power outages twice -- in two out of the three sentences that comprise the letter. The very first sentence implies that because we have had frequent power outages, we need to explore sustainable energy. Seems to me they're making power outage mitigation the prime selling point, and I don't know how it can be read otherwise. This was likely done to try and make it time relevant (why now? Why again?) and to attract people who aren't as swayed by the environmental benefits.
So, in my mind it's more than fair to request elaboration on how that would work. And I think it's unwise for CSD to sign the letter as written because it's so heavily selling something (power outage mitigation) that I can't see support for in the document.
Glad it was tabled pending more information. Sounds like the people there raised good questions.
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Exactly, agreed on all points.
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Quote from Wes Zuber: "Right now there is no competition at all, only SCE and what they decide. I would prefer competition as it does wonders in solving so many problems exactly like this one."
The Forum will enlighten me: does the local power company have competition anywhere in the USA? I thought home solar or windmill provides real-time power plus a pittance for your contribution to the grid at that moment, but you pay for your nighttime/zero wind use since virtually no energy is stored. And the high ridge windmills One Town proposes will be linked to SCE, not "competition".
Also: Mr. Zuber, the composition of a CSD board reflects the view of the community in the most recent election. Y'all should consider how your actions will influence the next one.
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It's good to read or reread Blount's letter from page 1. Many interesting points there.
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(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53657205_10218543843688452_6913209557556658176_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=a0921671e7a88b5cf86f59cc19215e7e&oe=5D11C1DE)
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Wow. After reading the letter it seems someone didn't do any research into the basics of what is required before proceeding with such a project. If it was looked into, it would be almost impossible to deal with the scenic aspects that would not allow such development.
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Wow. After reading the letter it seems someone didn't do any research into the basics of what is required before proceeding with such a project. If it was looked into, it would be almost impossible to deal with the scenic aspects that would not allow such development.
That's exactly what I thought when I read it. Pretty final letter.
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The Forum will enlighten me: does the local power company have competition anywhere in the USA? I thought home solar or windmill provides real-time power plus a pittance for your contribution to the grid at that moment, but you pay for your nighttime/zero wind use since virtually no energy is stored. And the high ridge windmills One Town proposes will be linked to SCE, not "competition".
Once upon a time, you could buy power from anyone, and SCE would deliver it to you. You could buy cheaper power, or green power, or whatever.
I'm not sure that really survived California's deregulation.
SCE is in a very real sense a monopoly, and therefore subject to the will of the California Public Utilities Commission, which (theoretically) prevents them from running amok. Power and telephone companies are usually granted a monopoly so that there is one set of power lines and not several sets. Same for plain old telephone service and CATV. There are now exceptions, especially for telecoms.
Wes might say that the CPUC is in Edison's pocket, and I cannot argue that.
I'm doing this from memory, so feel free to double check.
SCE gets (according to my power bill) $0.03 per day and just under $0.12 per kilowatt to deliver energy to our homes. That covers the cost of running the grid, fixing outages, etc.
What we actually pay for power is supposed to be near break-even for SCE. They buy power on the open market, and sell it to us at their tariffed rate. If this part isn't break even, the tariff is adjusted.
The open market is managed by the California Independent System Operator (CAISO). Nearly all of the generators are owned by for-profit generating companies, exceptions being hydroelectric and nuclear.
Yes, there are times when SCE is buying power at more than their selling cost, but there are also times when they're paying a lot less and it's supposed to balance out.
Best place to read up on this is probably the CAISO web site.
I'm sure this is a gross oversimplification, and the whole system is even more bizarre and inexplicable.
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Once upon a time, you could buy power from anyone, and SCE would deliver it to you. You could buy cheaper power, or green power, or whatever.
I'm not sure that really survived California's deregulation.
Some places, like the city of Lancaster (and I'm sure others), are trying.. I'm still not sure there will ever be a "better deal" for consumers.
https://www.cityoflancasterca.org/residents/lancaster-choice-energy (https://www.cityoflancasterca.org/residents/lancaster-choice-energy)
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The concept of what Wrightwood (and its sister cities Pinon Hills and Phelan) can do as local communities to address energy supply and costs is worthy of its own thread here. I do recall that there was some sort of language in the proposal for the WCSD that included a future wind project. I don't know if that language was maintained in the final approval of the WCSD. I'm guessing this recent request on the WCSD agenda for a "letter of support" is the same project. Either way, the WCSD and here in P.H. the PPHCSD, are community boards that can become a focal point for such discussions. An Ad Hoc group would work too.
I do think communities need to 'explore' what can be done at the local level to address the incorporation of renewable energy into their supply systems. One Town has one such proposal. Hopefully, that group will come back to the CSD at some point to flesh out their idea for broader community discussion. I also believe that communities need to look at the issue from a perspective that incorporates solar as well as wind. We can all likely agree that hydroelectric is not likely in our neck of the woods for local generation.
The PPHCSD invested in solar a few years ago for its water dept. electrical needs. I don't know if Golden State has any such plans. For me, I would much rather see localized and discreet sources for electricity generation than the huge wind and solar installations taking over our desert. Lancaster's model is one such that can be looked at. Lancaster is an incorporated city. I don't know what the County of San Bernardino is doing on this issue. I'd certainly like to participate in future discussions - if we look at it from a Tri-Community perspective. I have the electricity bills to spur my enthusiasm. I also see the whole issues of "climate change" as a driving force.
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Mr. Zuber, the composition of a CSD board reflects the view of the community in the most recent election. Y'all should consider how your actions will influence the next one.
If I get your meaning, (and I might have missed it), please feel free to fire me through the election process if that's your intention, that's what an election is for after all. I mean no animus by this, I really mean it and believe in the principle of elections and a representational government.
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The Forum will enlighten me: does the local power company have competition anywhere in the USA? I thought home solar or windmill provides real-time power plus a pittance for your contribution to the grid at that moment, but you pay for your nighttime/zero wind use since virtually no energy is stored. And the high ridge windmills One Town proposes will be linked to SCE, not "competition".
Even the mere threat of existence of any kind of competition brings forth accountability, and therefore restraint. Right now our rates are are anchored in the political and the unholy alliance of government and business, they wink and nod at each other until something really bad happens (as in the recent fires). We are at a pivotal time in history where the cost of producing and storing electricity has come down enough to be within tantalizing reach. Although One Town's proposal did not include storage, and I wish it had, it does offer competition. SCE would know that they are not the only producer in town. That in fact storage could be added, they are no longer in total control. That was the point I was trying to make in the context of competition.
Regards,
--Wes
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The attached is an editorial from the LATimes today. It discusses the issues surrounding San Bernardino County's move to limit development of large solar/wind projects in the desert.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-san-bernardino-solar-farm-ban-climate-change-20190311-story.html
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We tend to think of Wrightwood as being part of San Bernadino County, and that's mostly true.
If wind is being installed near the top of Mt. High, that's in Los Angeles County.
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True. LA County bans 'large scale' wind farms in unincorporated areas. The One Town proposal is for one wind turbine (I think). This week's MP stated that the SBC ban is in RL zones. It mentioned PH and Phelan. It didn't mention WW.
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The One Town proposal is for one wind turbine (I think). ]
The last time they proposed this project back in 2011, I believe it was like 3 of them at Blue Ridge, and I don't remember how many on their private property. Even with this latest proposal, they admit to wanting these things on two different properties, so I'd say it's a safe bet that it's more than just one.