WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: San_Andreas_Fault on Jul 17, 03, 02:26:24 AM
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The night sky with all its stars, planets and mystery are infinitely important to us.
Sadly, we can no longer look up and see the same sky our grandparents saw.
SB County Dark Sky Ordinance - Petition
http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/PreserveDarkSkiesSBCty/
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Thursday morning at the San Bernardino County Planning Commission, the Dark Sky Ordinance was passed unanimously with no changes! It now goes to the San Bernardino County Board of Supervisors on October 7th.
Here's a full copy of the proposed Dark Sky Ordinance:
ftp://http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forumimg/SBCoOutdoorLighting.doc
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Oh I surely hope they pass it all the way.
It's really sad to see the stars slowly getting washed away out of the night sky by so much unessesary light polution.
Not to mention I'm really getting tired of putting up with light invading into my home at night through my blinds from neighbors who love 100 watt porch lights that they leave on all night long. The only plus about that has been I have no need for night lights in my home. :P The sad thing is..I can't star watch in my backyard anymore. :(
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They can't enforce it yet.
It now goes to the San Bernardino County Board of Supervisors on October 7th.
I hope it passes and people start paying attention to the nuisance they cause with lights shining all over other peoples yards. There's a church camp in town that needs to make some modifications. When I walk by there at night it amazing on how many lights are always on. I don't understand how it can be an Outdoor school with all that light pollution.
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Yes, but JCrice, as a pilot, you might appreciate the value of the landing strip my neighbors operate.
Fortunately, our master bedroom is on the opposite side of the house from Wrightwood Municipal Airport.
The Dud
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Politicians make laws that are not enforced!! How many drivers of cars on I-15 speed? Do you drive 25 mph through neighborhoods??
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Please keep topic to SB County Dark Sky Ordinance 8)
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This pictures is from 1994 - 1995. Can you imagine how much worse the light polution is now?
(http://pages.prodigy.net/robertmorgan/usa-nightlights.jpg)
Of course Blackouts Are GREAT for getting rid of the light!
Before the East Coast Blackout:
(http://pages.prodigy.net/robertmorgan/East Coast Before Blackout.jpg)
During the East- Coast Blackout:
(http://pages.prodigy.net/robertmorgan/East Coast Blackout.jpg)
Pictures courtesty of NASA
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The Sun Newspaper ran an article this morning with current information about the proposed ordinance:
http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,208%257E12588%257E1619428,00.html
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The new Dark Sky Ordinance takes effect Oct 23, 2003 for Mountain & Desert areas of SB County.
Here's full copies of the new ordinance:
MS Word file: (requires MS Word on your computer)
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.doc (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.doc)
Adobe Acrobat file: (requires Free Acrobat Reader on your computer)
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.pdf (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.pdf)
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Does this mean that the WW Country club will be required to turn off some of their lights when the law is approved? Now how about doing something about DOGS that bark all night and all day. Yes I have two dogs and I keep them quite and in at night. Barking is only allowed after 9am untill around 7pm. Lets get back to the dark and quite Wrightwood that I remember when I moved up here some 24 years ago. While I am at it Spanky go home and stay there!!!
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Sure it sounds great and you all are correct, we should be able to look up and see all the stars, but, what happens when all the lights are out? People are thieves! You turn off all the lights and all you're going to get is more and more theft. I haven't read the ordinance but I hope there is a compromise, maybe something to the effect of only motion lights can be used, as to not leave the lights on all night, or maybe make it so you can only use 40 watt or something. I highly doubt anybody does it maliciously but don't say "No outside lights" that would be as intrusive as every house having a 100 watt light on all night every night.
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I'm sorry and you guys might think I'm an idiot and that's perfectly ok with me,
but....I think that this is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of. I agree with Big_Daddy....you guys are just asking for theft....you've already had problems with this in wrightwood have you not?...then why would you get something as stupid as this passed just so you can see another two stars in the sky?...drive up to Inspiration Point for stars for God's sake.
I think your going to be really dissapointed with the results...I mean who is going to really do this?..I mean come on people...I sure as heck aren't....I have too many bears and coyotes at my house and without sufficient lighting around my house at night we have been pretty suprised by wildlife that roams around here in the evening hours.
Just this last Sunday we woke up to our neighbor screaming "NO", "NO", "NO", "NOT MY BABIES" at coyotes that came into her yard and killed her two dogs and took them away right infront of her (we heard the whole thing at around 3am!)....more light would mean more awareness of what is around your house at night and others wouldn't it?
I just don't get it. I totally understand that you people want quite communities and not someone's 1500 watt halogen lights piercing into your homes at night, but what about the smaller lights that now we'll have to take down because of this? All you have to do is get some nuts and go over there and ask them to put some kind of shielding on it if it bothers you that much.
And if your scared to do it then call the sheriff. In my opinion...you just made things worse for yourselves...and us over in the other mountains of San Berdoo.
My two cents.
Mac
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...I think that this is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of. I agree with Big_Daddy....you guys are just asking for theft...
There are many types of lighting fixtures that will protect your home and also waste less energy (the light is focused where you want it, not up at the sky). These are great for satisfying both home security and keeping our night skies dark. Here is a link: http://www.darksky.org/fixtures/fixtures.html
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naturalist,
Good website!
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I think maybe some people got different impressions of the ordinance. They are not requiring that all lights be turned off, just toned down to reduce the light pollution. There are quite a few outdoor lights that provide decent illumination without lighting up the neighborhood. We are not asking for complete dark, just control the lighting out there so it is not obnoxious.
As for the thefts, while lighting does deter them somewhat, I don't think it is as effective as some people think. I've known cars to be stolen in broad daylight or broken into in brightly lit parking areas. Thieves will be thieves and some are very determined.
Motion lights can be more of a nuisance than bright lights, especially in the mountains. When the wind picks up, the trees set off the light and you get a constant on/off effect that is more annoying than a constantly on light.
As for wildlife, well, we live in the mountains. What do you expect? I've seen coyotes running around in broad daylight just across the street. Don't think that lights will help there.
I agree that recreational facilities should shut off their lights at 11:00. Last I knew, no one in Wrightwood plays tennis at 2:00am. Besides which, those lights are expensive to run and the facilities should shut them off for monetary reasons anyway.
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Bump
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Lights that have movement sensors have worked wonders for me. The use of these has eliminated all prowling around my home. I encourage the use of these in WW.
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We've got motion sensor hooded floodlights on our home, and I highly recommend them.
The trick is figuring out how to get them to NOT trigger during a wind event and concurrent tree movement. I'm still working on this one, though.
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Here's a great video which shows what we may see if we keep the porch lights off.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/06/milky-way-video/
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Thank you Nolena for posting that video. I haven't seen the Milky Way that well from Wrightwood in many years. Once in a while, when the LA Basin is clouded over, and all our neighbors' outside lights are off, the sky looks really beautiful.
I elected to post here rather than start a new topic because I liked the title - "Dark Skies". I thought I would post astronomical events to encourage people to go outside and enjoy the night sky. Today's is the crescent Moon and Jupiter. Tonight the crescent moon will be visible in the West after it begins to get dark. Jupiter looks like a bright star a few degrees above the Moon. You may notice a "V" of stars next to the Moon. That is a star cluster known as the Hyades.
If you have binoculars, take a look at Jupiter through them. Balance them on something sturdy (the hood of a car works well) and you will see up to four "stars" in a line one one side of Jupiter or the other. Those are actually Jupiter's four largest satellites (moons) that were discovered by Galileo back in the early 1600s. Now we know that Jupiter has more than 60 satellites (63 at last count), most of them much smaller than the Galilean satellites which are similar in size to our Moon.
Tomorrow the Moon will be a slightly larger crescent and located a little above and to the left of Jupiter as it moves slowly through the stars on its monthly orbit around the Earth. Don't forget to look at the Moon in your binoculars as well. It is a fine sight, and you can see some of the larger craters.
If take a few minutes to just enjoy the beauty of the night sky, you will see one more reason why it is wonderful to live here in Wrightwood or the high desert!
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The darkest skies I've seen lately were seen along the 15 freeway between Cedar City, Utah and Vegas. Only slightly less dark was the stretch between Vegas and Barstow. The one time we camped in the Mammoth back country was amazing though. That time lapse is nice, and I'm amazed by the sensitivity of modern cameras. I wonder what kind camera he was using. It even picks up "Airglow" floating by. You see it as a very faint wispy cloud-like green emission slowly floating by in about half of the darkest shots. I'd love to get a shot of that some time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airglow
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How about this idea for a summer tourism event:
Dark Sky Night in Wrightwood! From 9pm - 11pm one Saturday night a year, we as a community encourage everyone to turn their lights off for those two hours, so we and visitors can all look up at the stars. Before and after, of course, all of the local businesses are open for some night-time sales revenue. The chamber of commerce serves up hot chocolate and hands out star maps out on the elementary school field. Just before dark someone from JPL comes down and talks about the cosmos.
I'm a thinker, not a doer, so I'll just throw that out there. ;D
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Nice idea!
I never leave my outside lights on at night, anyway. Keeping my lights on would infringe on my neighbors' right to see the stars.
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Ad astra... what a great post.. thank you.
Tim... you do have good ideas.
I'm in PH.. so I do have dark skies. When it is clear, I can sit in my driveway and watch the meteor shows and see blankets of stars in the sky. Happy "Earth Day" tomorrow to all. cheryl o7o
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Way cool, Ad astra! Thanks for the enjoyable earthly commentary.
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Just went outside and saw the beautiful crescent moon and Jupiter. We used binoculars and the car hood, but the wind was so strong we couldn't hold them steady enough to see the Jupiter's moons, but the sky was beautiful and clear here in Phelan. Thank you so much ad astra...we'll look again tomorrow night!
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You can also photograph Jupiter and it's moons with a decent DSLR, tripod and a zoom lens. It wont be a WOW picture, but what you are seeing is certainly clear - the camera resolves the disc of the planet, not just a pinpoint of light but also no features, and the 4 largest moons. I might have caught a 5th moon to the right of the two moons on the right, but it's so dim it could have just as easily been a background star. This is from last year's Orionid meteor shower in October (which turned out to be a dud...hence me taking pictures of other things) , taken from Table Mountain:
ISO 2500, 250mm zoom, f/9 for 1.6 seconds, processed quite a bit.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/res7weom/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jupiter1.jpg)
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A remarkable series of events takes place low in the west-northwest shortly after sunset from late May to late June. It features the tightest three-planet grouping visible without binoculars until 2026 and an excellent apparition of Mercury.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/home/The-May-June-2013-Planet-Dance-192020551.html
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thought this is a good time to bump this thread, just as a reminder. according to this ordnance, your lights are not supposed to go outside the boundaries of your property.
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What ordinance is that? Can you give a link, ezzpete?
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I wish everyone adhered to the dark sky ordinance. I love being able to see the stars at night.
I've never understood why people leave outside lights on all night. It ruins the view.
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The new Dark Sky Ordinance takes effect Oct 23, 2003 for Mountain & Desert areas of SB County.
Here's full copies of the new ordinance:
MS Word file: (requires MS Word on your computer)
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.doc (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.doc)
Adobe Acrobat file: (requires Free Acrobat Reader on your computer)
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.pdf (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.pdf)
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I have neighbors on Mockingbird who leave their inside lights on all night long, with the blinds facing downhill toward the houses on my street. Their house is 2-story on the Mockingbird side, but 3-story on the Oriole side.
They used to leave the outside (prison-style) lights on all night long, but all of us neighbors spoke to them about that.
I don't know how they sleep with all those lights on all night, as well as the really noisy flatlander air conditioner.
Aaaaaaaaaarg!!
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in the 10 years i've been here my neighborhood has gone from black at night to where my front room is lit up from the ghetto flood lights all over the place. seems to have a direct connection to the "crime mapping" thread. i'd rather have trespassers stumble around in the dark than light the area up for them. there was a house about 2 blocks away that installed super bright lights on the 2nd floor and shined them right in my bedroom. i talked to the owner and it turned kind of ugly. he did redirect them but they still light my room. it's really changing up here, too many flatlanders maybe, and don't get me started about the barking dogs, and GET OFF MY LAWN.......
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The only light I enjoy at night is the moon. As much as I love moonlight.. I also enjoy it when it wanes and I can see the stars.
Nolena: What about asking those neighbors to point their blinds in the up position? They may not realize their lights are intrusive.
Ezzpete: I agree with you. There is likely a direct correlation to outside lighting at night and trying to deter criminals.
As for the problem with dogs and your lawn... how about a sign that says:
"Dear Dog Walker,
You and your dog are being video taped. This evidence will be used. Please clean it up.
This message is part of the community service project of the Mayor of San Marino." cheryl o7o
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Cheryl, the get off my lawn comment was a joke. the older i get the more i'm getting to be a grumpy old geezer. i don't have a lawn, total waste of water.
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"Nolena: What about asking those neighbors to point their blinds in the up position? They may not realize their lights are intrusive."
Yeah. That's part of my plan. I think there are some kids staying there right now. I'll talk to the owner.
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Just curious...if we have any codes on the books that deal with nuisance lighting from other homes?
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The new Dark Sky Ordinance takes effect Oct 23, 2003 for Mountain & Desert areas of SB County.
Here's full copies of the new ordinance:
MS Word file: (requires MS Word on your computer)
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.doc (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.doc)
Adobe Acrobat file: (requires Free Acrobat Reader on your computer)
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.pdf (http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/darksky/darkskyord.pdf)
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Thanks Wrightwood, I didn't know that existed.
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My reading of the end of page 9 suggests...
...that on a moonless night if a yardstick casts a shadow on my property, then my neighbor is a "light trespasser", and I can complain to the controlling legal authority, who in this case seems to be the Land Use Services Director. Gimme a break.
Out of curiosity, is anyone aware of anyone who has filed a complaint?
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It's time that we start reporting this stuff.
I'm tired of prison lighting at night.
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I think (that means read it yourself) that the ordinance states you place the yardstick on the 'setback' place of your property. Therefore, not on the property line itself. I don't have that problem here as my neighbors are too far away. But, I can understand why those of you in WW may have "light trespassing" from neighbors. I love that term... it's so 21st century.
There are people that want a light on all night. I'm not one of them. But, they are people too. I guess it's a feeling of security. Some folks like to fall asleep with a radio or TV on. I'm not one of those either. I like dark and quiet. (Disclaimer: I am prone to playing rock and roll really loud during the day. But, my neighbors are far away.)
As for the security aspect of this. .. does it really work? Or, are you providing light for the gang that likes to siphon gas out of your car or steal something else out of your yard? I dunno. cheryl o7o
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I agree about serious invasive lighting. I had to live w/it in the city, and there is some outside lighting in WW that is out of control. As a former Detective I can say w/o a doubt that lighting is the cheapest and most effective way to protect your home, business, property, and self. Yellow bug lights are great, add ambiance, and sensor lights are very effective. Just last night there was an intruder on this property. My dog alerted to the human intruder and they left when I turned on the backyard light.
When I moved up here I was told WWdians don't need to lock their door. Ha!
I also think it makes a lot of difference how many people live on the property. If your house is almost always occupied, then there is activity and people present which is usually a deterent..and lights are on at night. But if you live alone, or as a couple, the activity level is much lower and lights may not be on. No matter what, I do not want to come home w/the exterior entrances to the house dark, nor would I want to come home to a totally dark house. There are many options for lighting (I prefer very subtle and sensor, but it works!) that help people keep safe from humans and animals. Even in WW, too much "stuff" happens.
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On the "bright side"....I took a long gander in the night at my own property...and have concluded thus far..all my big ole
pines are lit up, along with the cars, driveway area, landscaped rocks...the whole yard is lit up like it's a full moon x 10...this will actually work to
our benefit. :2thumbsup:
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Me? I'm totally a "dark sky" guy. Not a single outdoor light at night.
But...the general contractor who lives across the street from me...good quiet neighbor, salt of the earth, etc. 2 trucks loaded with tools, compressors, ladders, and the other trappings of his profession. Like many homes in Wrightwood, small garage, trucks aren't going in there. One man's theft deterrence is another man's "light trespasser".
So...since I doubt the county Land Use Services Director is prepared to harass the honest working man doing what he needs to do to protect his livelihood on his own private property...since I doubt that mountain communities are going to forbid (former) city dwellers with a well-developed sense of home security from bringing themselves peace of mind...the Dark Sky Ordinance is well-intentioned clap-trap with zero actual enforcement behind it. The Land Use Services Director isn't just a paper tiger, he/she's the ultimate tissue paper tiger.
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Woah what just happened? I just came back from Mexico Lindo and my margarita was too strong or yours was, not sure, but all those words above just did me in.....
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Sagespirit: I was told the same thing about not locking your doors when we moved to P.H. Then I was burglarized. The door was locked. I now have a security system again. It brings peace of mind whether it's a placebo effect or not.
Cheapskate: I'm not sure from your post if your 'salt of the earth/contractor/neighbor' has lights that shine on your yard. If so, you might suggest lights that do illuminate his trucks.. but shine in towards his house and not yours. And, you don't know how much of a paper tiger the enforcement agency for 'dark skies' is until you file a complaint.
3Pink: I hope you walked home. Those margaritas at Mexico Lindo are killer. cheryl o7o
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the Milky Way is now hidden from a third of humanity (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/06/10/light-pollution-keeps-much-of-humanity-from-seeing-the-night-sky/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories-2_ee-stars-930pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)
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This organization provides some good information on preserving and improving our dark skies:
http://darksky.org/lighting/lighting-basics/
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Time to remind people that we have a Dark Skies Ordinance in this county, so that we can all enjoy the night sky. :)
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light pollution has always been a pet peeve of mine. I have a neighbor over a half mile away that has ridiculously bright lights. He's from Chatsworth and is constantly quoting the city about this or that. Even with all those lights he's completely in the dark when it comes to knowing the difference between a city and and unincorporated L.A. County. Anyone that has moved in around me since 2008 are extremely clueless and complete city folks.
Another neighbor 3/4's of a mile to the Northwest lined his nearly quarter mile long driveway with bright lights. Sooner or later I expect an airplane to land on it.
I turned off all my outside lights a couple decades ago. I find I feel safer having my dog and the cloak of darkness on my side when it comes to people snooping around.
Now get off my lawn! oh wait I don't have a lawn either ;)
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Hahahaha! ;D
I have neighbors who don't get it, also. They brought their city to the country. :-\
It doesn't make anyone any safer, and then you can't see the stars.
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I can remember, back to when we had our "cabin" on Linnet, and we would come up for a weekend, get out of the car, and look up and just be amazed at the stars! We lived in the South Bay then, so we were not used to dark sky and that many stars. Especially when it was winter, and snow, and the air was crisp, the stars were just incredible. That was 45 years ago, and the cold didn't bother me nearly as much as it does now, nor was I terrified of falling then. Eventually we would have to turn on lights to take our stuff in, but then we could turn them off and go out onto the deck and just be amazed.
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I spent some time in Flagstaff, AZ over the Thanksgiving holiday. They must have very strict dark sky ordinances/enforcement. All the houses in the neighborhood were all lit with downward lighting and it was relatively dark throughout the neighborhood. It was very welcome although a bit tough to find our Airbnb address in the dark when we arrived.
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sbcounty@public.govdelivery.com
Board Agenda Item
File #: 5206
Type: Discussion Status: Agenda Ready
File created: 11/29/2021 Department: Land Use Services
On agenda: 12/7/2021 Final action:
Subject: An Ordinance Amending Outdoor Light Standards
Attachments: 1. ATT-LUS-12-7-21-Planning Commission Staff Report, 2. ATT-LUS-12-7-21-Approved Planning Commission Minutes, 3. ADD-ATT-12-7-21-Planning Commission Memo, 4. ADD-ATT-12-7-21-Additional Comments Received, 5. ATT-ORD-LUS-12-07-21-Light Trespass final summary, 6. ATT-ORD-LUS-12-07-21-Light Trespass proposed summary, 7. ORD-LUS-120721-Light Trespass redline, 8. ORD-LUS-120721-Light Trespass, 9. R1-PPT-LUS-12-7-2021-Light Trespass Ordinance
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sbcounty@public.govdelivery.com
Board Agenda Item
File #: 5206
Type: Discussion Status: Agenda Ready
File created: 11/29/2021 Department: Land Use Services
On agenda: 12/7/2021 Final action:
Subject: An Ordinance Amending Outdoor Light Standards
Attachments: 1. ATT-LUS-12-7-21-Planning Commission Staff Report, 2. ATT-LUS-12-7-21-Approved Planning Commission Minutes, 3. ADD-ATT-12-7-21-Planning Commission Memo, 4. ADD-ATT-12-7-21-Additional Comments Received, 5. ATT-ORD-LUS-12-07-21-Light Trespass final summary, 6. ATT-ORD-LUS-12-07-21-Light Trespass proposed summary, 7. ORD-LUS-120721-Light Trespass redline, 8. ORD-LUS-120721-Light Trespass, 9. R1-PPT-LUS-12-7-2021-Light Trespass Ordinance
See if this link works:
https://sanbernardino.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5349805&GUID=47C0384C-F267-4690-AC48-E9931DEFE1E9&Options=&Search=&FullText=1
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This passed the Board of Supervisors on 12/7. I don't know if they made changes to it. Good!
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I thought I saw a post on here about county ordinances to help keep desert and mountain communities sky clear from light pollution? I looked but couldn't find the thread.
My new neighbors who are weekenders have their Christmas lights up still on a timer every night. They turn dark about midnight but it is just too much light. Any advice?
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It does seem that things are getting a lot brighter.
There is a house on Edna west of Cedar (I think) that is bright enough that I avoid that block of Edna.
It looks like just turning the fixture a little would help a lot.