WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Home - Garden - Auto - Carpooling => Topic started by: mtman on Apr 18, 04, 08:58:09 PM
-
Does anyone have a suggestion on getting instant hot water at the other end of a large house?
I know running 5 minutes of water to get a hot shower is a waste of water. We need a cost effective method to get hot water to the other end of a large house. Help!
-
I'm thinking about getting one of those "instant on" gas hot water heaters. I don't think that would solve the problem of having to run the cool water that is currently in the pipes. the only thing I can think of is having an electrical tape that heats the water that is currently in the pipes (used in the really cold areas where pipes freeze readily). The instant on water heaters I looked at were around $700-800. but they are supposed to be so much more energy efficient that they save in the long run.
-
We recently installed a circulating pump for a customer that didn't require running a return pipe. It can be installed in any house without the hassle of installing the return line. It's much more economical in most cases than the circulating pump with the return line and the unit comes with a built in timer so you can set it for instant hot water when you need it and the pump won't be running when you don't need it. You have to have an electric outlet by the water heater to plug the pump into. You won't be filling up your septic tank with unused water. :)
-
What kind of cost are you talking about?
Is it a pump or an instant hot water heater?
We recently installed a circulating pump for a customer that didn't require running a return pipe. It can be installed in any house without the hassle of installing the return line. It's much more economical in most cases than the circulating pump with the return line and the unit comes with a built in timer so you can set it for instant hot water when you need it and the pump won't be running when you don't need it. You have to have an electric outlet by the water heater to plug the pump into. You won't be filling up your septic tank with unused water. :)
-
The average installation for the pump and labor would be between $500.00 and $600.00. It's a circulating pump, not a water heater.
-
The maker's of these pumps say that you'll save much more than the initial cost in terms of water and gas savings. I do understand how less water would be used, but I don't understand how less gas would be. It seems more would be because it's keeping a larger amount of water hot. And I don't think the savings in water would be that significant.
-
-
Why do some people with large houses put in mutiple water heaters? I know several homes that did that. One has 5 of them. Is that the answer?
-
FIVE WATER HEATERS IN ONE HOUSE!?
That's a lot of gas being used to percolate water just sitting there waiting to be used....
One would have to have more money than they have working brain cells. That certainly is not energy efficient.
Where I stayed in Rio de Janeiro Brasil they didn't have water heaters at all. They had these units on the bathroom wall, about the size of a small computer printer box. You would turn a valve and light a pilot light and have instantly hot water for tub or shower. THESE WORKED FAMOUSLY (1991).
Their use saved the space a water heater would occupy
AND
They only paid for the gas and the water they actually used.
Anyone know anything about these?
Are they available in the U.S.?
If not, WHY NOT? ???
::)
-
Yes, they are available in the US as "instant on" hot water heaters. That is what I was talking about in my previous post. They only come in gas, electric ones are rare if you can find them at all. I am thinking about replacing my hot water tank with one. The one I looked at at Lowes was around $750. The other thing I like about them is I don't have to worry about some big tank falling on the ground during an earthquake. Yes, my tank is strapped to the wall, but ya never know! :-/
-
Try looking at the RINNI tankless water heater, a little more expensive, but they last around 20 years if taken care of. I have installed these units in residential and commercial buildings, they work extremely well.
LOcal
-
We almost installed a tankless water heater a few years back. What stopped us was the length of the exhaust pipe that's needed in order to take the extremely hot exhaust well above your roof.
-
hmmm, some good input--thanks for the info Local and Nolena ;D
-
-
Go to grundfos.com and look under comfort series instant hot water systems
Or try here: http://www.grundfos.com/Web/HomeUs.nsf/Webopslag/2D284E62A364BCD5C1256C3D003D8118
-
And now for something completely different....point of view anyway. The tankless water heaters are neat, but! I depend on that 40 to 50 gallons of perfectly good drinking as a part of my earthquake planning. Far from viewing it as a hazard, it's crucial resource. It's enough water to drink for a LONG time, and it's always being refreshed with new so there are no long term strorage problems. For this reason you should always keep the drain valve at the bottom of the water heater in good working order and occasionally drian off some water to keep it clean.
-
I found a PDF file that explains more:
ftp://http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/news/InstantHotWater1.pdf
-
I guess the whole issue boils down to:
"No tanks!"
or
"Tanks a lot!"
;D
-
Yes the big house on hwy 2 that used to be Janna Houston's has five water heaters also several wells.
-
Good thinking Clint--except I bought my house from George--who was a "zen" kinda guy and never did any maintenance so I don't even want to THINK about what is in the bottom of my tank.... I'm on a well that doesn't have a sand filter and hoooweee, I can just imagine the crud at the bottom (oh great! another home project for this weekend! it never ends ::) )
-
All that crud in the bottom of the tank can sure reduce the heating efficiency.
-
This weekend the Riverside press had a major article on tankless water heaters. Seems to be the new trend for the future. Costs about 1200 dollars including installition but almost maintenance free . Sounds good even for a don't wanna be flatlander.
-
how hard are the comfort series instant hot water systems to install can any one install them or do they havt to be installed by a plumer?
-
Check this one out...
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/atop/productswaterheaters.asp
And
http://www.designerplumbing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=Tankless_Gas_Hot_Water_Heaters
If you handy with a wrench, you could do this yourself...
-
Here are some FAQs for the tankless water heater advertised on KFI.
http://www.noritzamerica.com/faq.html
-
Does anyone have the tankless water heater (on demand) installed in their home? Looking into purchasing one just wondered how well they worked. Also the brand you may have. Thanks
-
Check these out:
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,161.0.html
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.0.html
-
We have 2. One is a Bosch... the other one we just bought for our addition. Cant remember the name, and I am currently at work... so can't look at it.
We love them, and would highly recommend them. Takes little space, and easy to install. If the pilot blows out , you click this thing and it lights by itself.
They output a lot of hot water, and an endless supply.
-
how long have you had these things? does the gunk in the water here clog em up after a while? i am bery intrested
-
I have a tankless waterheater and from November to the end of May, I can't get a hot shower!!!
Even though the waterheater is right next to the bathroom with the shower, the water is so cold coming out of the ground that the unit cannot heat the water quickly enough. I shiver through showers all winter and you can just forget about a hot bath.
A couple years ago, I discovered that if I do a load of laundry at the same time, the unit will kick into high gear and I can get a warm shower. But I don't have enough laundry to do that for every shower.
Also, I have to heat water to do my dishes all winter.
I would not EVER recommend one and hope to replace mine eventually.
In fact, maybe I'll go take a hot bath right now while the ground water is still warm enough...
-
we have an electric one in our guest house. When it is used it dims the lights and uses lots of eletricity. It is hot hot hot. We like it because we have no gas line out there (it would involve jackhammers and lots of money). I didn't want a tank water heater on all the time. There is lots of time when its not used. It needs 220. We like it alot.
-
Our gas water heater has been running since 1991 (!) so I expect it to go soon. When it does, I'm thinking about whether or not to replace with a gas tankless water heater. Our place only sees use on the weekends, so I'm hoping that would save money in the long run. Anybody have any experiences?
-
This topic was discussed previously - it may help you out.
Topic: Water Heaters, Softeners, and Filtering Questions
Just do a search and it will come up.
-
Read this, some tanks still outperform tankless....
http://greenbuildingelements.com/2008/04/30/low-impact-living-the-low-down-on-tankless-hot-water-heaters/
Moderator note: This topic was combined with two other previous topics about the same subject.
-
Thanks for merging this with the other related posts.
I'm still debating which way to go on this one. My biggest reasons for going tankless would be that the 40 gallon tank is a bit small and there's no room to get a 50 gallon in there. Also, mine doesn't see regular usage 24/7. Probably the biggest argument against the tankless water heater is that you don't have the 40-50 gallons on standby in case of an emergency. Reading about cold showers in the winter, I can't help but to think that they just have too small of a tankless water heater. If I go tankless, I'm sure I'll need a bigger gas line and a bigger vent stack, but those are relatively simple issues to deal with given the location of the water heater.
I'll probably give one of the local plumbers a call soon to take a look at options.
-
Tankless water heaters don't always reduce energy bills
Don Bartletti / Los Angeles Times
Improper installation or product sizing can get in the way of any instant energy savings. Before installing, consider all the specifications.
By Scott Marshutz, Special to The Times
August 16, 2008
STEVE BROWNELL has a dim view of his tankless water heater, and he's in denial about his utility bills.
Three years ago, the Irvine resident installed the heater in his 3,000-square-foot, single-story home with the goal that the unit would pay for itself fairly quickly through lower gas bills and provide an endless supply of hot water.
"At the time, I was thinking it would be a total utility savings -- gas, water and electric," Brownell said.
Think again. Instant energy savings aren't necessarily guaranteed. Although manufacturers estimate that tankless gas-type water heaters can save between 20% to 50% on annual gas bills compared with standard tanks, improper installation or product sizing can extend the payoff time. Also, large homes with long pipe runs may require additional equipment to speed up hot water delivery to fixtures and actually drive up energy costs. This was the case in Brownell's situation.
He paid a plumber about $2,500 for the installation, which included increasing the size of his gas line, adding a carbon filter and the tankless water heater itself.
Soon after, he noticed it was taking an extremely long time for the unit to deliver hot water to his master bath shower. By Brownell's estimates, almost five minutes. He had another plumber install a recirculation pump to reduce the time, but he said it didn't help much.
After he placed several phone calls and sent a letter, the manufacturer dispatched Gabe Meier of Santa Ana-based Meier Plumbing to troubleshoot the problem.
The reason it was taking so long for Brownell to get hot water to his shower, Meier said, was that the lines in the master bathroom branch 10 to 15 feet off the main water supply line, which stretches more than 75 feet from the water heater. To fix it would require opening up a wall and extending the circulating line closer to the shower -- an extra $1,000, according to Meier. Because Brownell's master bathroom contains high-end custom stone and glass block, he elected not to have the work completed.
Even so, Meier was able to troubleshoot other areas and improve the hot water delivery.
"The recirculation pump was too small for the size of the home, and it didn't have an aquastat," Meier said, referring to a thermostat that turns off the pump when the water in the pipe reaches a certain temperature. "So we upgraded the pump and added the aquastat."
Meier also added a timer to shut the pump off for a preset number of hours and cut down on electricity usage.
Although all the extra work has helped reduce the time it takes to get his hot water, Brownell said his dream of lower utility bills has become a recurring nightmare. "I'm not saving anything," he said. "In fact, I'm paying more for all three utilities."
Most tankless installations do not incur these types of problems, Meier said, but because Brownell's house is 3,000 square feet and the pipe runs are long, the recirculation pump was necessary. "When you estimate a tankless water installation, you won't know the exact distance of the pipe runs from a main water line to the master shower, for example, without doing some extra research."
With that in mind, before having a tankless water heater installed, here are some questions that manufacturers recommend consumers consider:
* Is your plumbing contractor licensed in California and certified by the manufacturer to install the product? Most tankless water heater manufacturers provide a list of plumbing contractors authorized to service and install the units on company websites.
* Has your contractor sized the tankless water heater properly so it can serve the correct number of fixtures in your home?
* Will you need a Category III stainless vent pipe, or will the unit be installed on the home's exterior?
* Will you need to increase the size of your gas line? Tankless water heaters typically require a 3/4 -inch gas line.
* Depending on your community's water quality, will you need a water softener or another type of filtration device to protect the tankless unit from hard-water deposit buildup?
* Will you need a recirculation pump (or comparable system) to reduce the amount of time it takes to deliver hot water to your faucets and fixtures?
To encourage tankless water heater sales, Southern California Gas Co. implemented a $200 rebate program last year. For the first five months of the program, the utility recorded only 560 rebates. But as more manufacturers get on board, the number of tankless water heaters being installed in Southern California appears to be brisk.
"Our records indicate that 3,897 units have been installed so far in 2008 in our service territory" based on rebates, said Denise King, public relations manager for Sempra Energy, parent company of Southern California Gas Co.
The rebate program, which is scheduled to end Dec. 31, does not track customer satisfaction. Consumer Reports, however, will be reporting on tankless water heaters in October
-
Does anyone have a receommendation to fix my water softener? YoMama does not work on them. Thanks.
-
A traditional tank water heater is still the easiest -don't have to think about it or do anything- answer to having 40-50 gallons of always fresh water on hand for an earthquake. It's foolish in fault country to have anything else. It is constantly refreshed. Does not need storage chlorine. And should already be strapped in place securely!
-
-
Jirka, Just read your post and went on-line to read about demand pumps. I was wondering if, by putting this under the bathroom sink, lets say, if you pushed the button will it pump it to the kitchen sink or shower faster also, if that is the faucet you open up? I'm having a hard time undersatanding how it would do that. Sounds like a great thing to install, as we have a tankless water heater and that is my biggest gripe about it. It takes a while to get hot water to the shower and bathroom sink. Thanks for posting this information.
-
One way to get into hot water real quick is to forget about your better half this coming Sunday when Mother's Day shows up. ;D
-
-
Thanks for your reply Jirka! Maybe I will try to call them and find out how it would help with a tankless water heater because there is no storage for the water. Sounds like a great investment. Anything to help conserve water!
-
The diagram on the Chilli Pepper website shows a direct connection under the sink from Hot to Cold water through the chilli pepper pump. It doesn't pump the water all the way back to the water heater. Rather, it pumps it into the cold water line at the location where it is installed. If the pressure coming out of the Chilli Pepper is higher than the Cold Water line pressure, water flows from the hot side to the cold side. Since the amount coming out of the hot line (hopefully) equals the amount going into the cold line, the 2 flows will cancel each other out at the water heater inlet (tankless or tank) and no water flow from the water company is needed.
-
Regarding size:
I got the larger Bosch unit, which can heat 6 Gpm from 40 to 140 F. it has a computer to adjust the amount of heat based upon demand. It works well on cold winter days. I installed a full 3/4 inch gas line right to the unit, as recomended. The Bosch unit cranks. I took it apart last winter while I put some drywall in. I have a water softener installed in line with it. When I looked into it, it was relatively clean.
-
Tankless sounds like way too much trouble, to me.
-
Tankless may or may not be more work to install, but works great, especially if your pipes have good insulation so you're not losing heat to warming up the pipes.
Our first 'non-heater' gas bill was 1/4 that of last year.
-
Does anyone have a receommendation to fix my water softener? YoMama does not work on them. Thanks.
what type do you have?
-
Boston Bob's commment is correct, the instant hot water is instant at the unit itself, then drops off as the hot water runs through the house, Installing a recirculating line will help if installed correctly. A house of 2-3 this unit when installed correctly would be OK. 4 or more and the recovery time may start to suffer. A unit running for an hour running hot water may tend to fade away as the recover starts to diminish, odd as it seems it is correct. In apartments they uses a type of heater with a return line the and heater is more along the line of a pool heater. Cost affective...? I would rather buy a new 50gal $200 water heater every 7- ten years. Can you get that savings on an instant heater??? Guessing no repair cost for a 5 year warranty unit, would cost 12 cents per day for 5 years for the purchase of the heater.
-
I would rather buy a new 50gal $200 water heater every 7- ten years. Can you get that savings on an instant heater???
Plus like Clint previously mentioned the water heater has 50 gallons of drinkable water in the event of a disaster. Wish I would have thought about that before drinking out of the toilet.
-
-
Perhaps one can get a 50gal water heater for $200 (if so, you should pick up a bunch and resell them if you need some extra cash ;-) but HD & Lowes start around $400 and go up, up and away.
Yes I did not check the latest prices, I was using a figure from 5 years ago and mine was $200 or so. They also all now come with a 6 year warranty. 12 year is doubel the price, go figure.