WrightwoodCalif.com Forum
Public Forums => Disaster Awareness & CERT => Topic started by: Wildman on Jun 15, 07, 10:06:03 AM
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This is a link to an interesting information sheet about the DC-10 Air Tanker based out of Victorville. They are now available to respond immediately to fires on CALFIRE jurisdiction. Lots of interesting information and pictures.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/dc10-t910.pdf
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Unfortunatley today the DC-10 had a mishap while working on the White Fire in Kern County.
Sounds like it came in contact with a radio tower after a downdraft.
The DC-10 safely made an emergency landing at So Cal Airport in Victorville.
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Makes you think of a scene from the the Spielberg movie on firefighting aircraft where the ship hits the trees and keeps on flying. What an incredible story....thank goodness the crew brought the ship back safely.
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This movie?
"Always" Steven Spielberg, 1989
Richard Dreyfuss, Holly Hunter, John Goodman, Audrey Hepburn
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096794/
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Thanks! That was the name I couldn't remember. A great action movie with great effects.
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I couldn't get past the first 15 minutes as half of the people in the movie would have been fired on a real fire. Beer in fire camp? Never seen THAT one.... :P
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Grounded firefighting jet raised doubts among USFS officials
By MARCUS WOHLSEN
The Associated Press
SAN FRANCISCO
A one-time passenger jet modified to fight wildfires remained grounded Tuesday after striking the tops of several trees and nearly crashing while battling a mountain blaze along the San Joaquin Valley's southern edge.
The DC-10 air tanker was unveiled with much fanfare by California fire officials last year as the first firefighting jet of its kind and used again in 2007 despite the U.S. Forest Service's refusal to certify the plane for firefighting use.
The plane was preparing to drop fire retardant along a Kern County ridge when a severe downdraft forced the aircraft to sink 100 to 200 feet, said Mike Padilla, chief of aviation for California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.
The jet's left wing clipped the tops of several trees, estimated to be 100 to 150 feet tall, but the pilots powered safely out of the descent.
"They were under complete control the whole time," Padilla said.
No one was injured in the near-miss incident, and the crew returned to its base in Victorville.
The plane, known as Tanker 910, was being used to halt the spread of a wildfire about 80 miles north of Los Angeles. The blaze, dubbed the White Fire, had burned more than 16 square miles of brush and destroyed five buildings by Tuesday afternoon, state forestry spokesman Martin Johnson said.
The Forest Service has refused to certify the plane over concerns about the number of hours already logged on the 31-year-old DC-10, said Mark Rey, a Department of Agriculture undersecretary.
In the summer of 2002, two large air tankers that suffered in-flight structural failures while fighting fires crashed, killing a total of five crew members. In both cases, the wings on a PB4Y-2 over Colorado and a C-130 flying near Yosemite National Park appeared to fall off.
"What we're concerned about is catastrophic metal fatigue that results in a plane breaking up in the air, because those are the accidents we had a couple years ago," Rey said. "Call us overly cautious, but we're erring on (the side of) an abundance of caution based on two previous accidents where the two planes broke up in the air."
Tanker 910's virtual prohibition from federal land, including national forests, means it cannot be dispatched over vast swaths of California, including the slopes near Lake Tahoe where a destructive wildfire is raging.
The DC-10 jet has won approvals to serve as a firefighting aircraft from the Federal Aviation Administration and the Interagency Air Tanker Board. The FAA's certifications allowed Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to deploy it in California, Rey said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
But the McDonnell Douglas aircraft was only designed to fly 67,000 hours and has passed that figure, said Tom Harbour, director of fire and aviation management for the Forest Service.
The jet can be flown past that, but the manufacturer or modifier must demonstrate to the government why it can still be safely operated, Harbour said by phone.
The California forestry department's aviation chief called the Forest Service's limit on the DC-10's service life an "artificial requirement." While the jet's major components must be replaced after being used for a certain number of hours, Padilla said, the plane itself has no specific limits on hours of use.
"We're absolutely satisfied and pleased with what this aircraft is doing," Padilla said. "It's a very good tool, and we think it has a future."
State officials hope to get the jet airborne again within 30 days, pending repairs and an investigation into the cause of the mishap, Padilla said.
The DC-10 can carry 12,000 gallons of water or fire retardant 10 times the volume of the standard propeller planes that make up the bulk of California's firefighting air fleet.
Among its accomplishments, state fire officials credit Tanker 910 with knocking back the edge of the Day fire, the fifth largest in modern California history, as flames threatened the popular tourist town of Ojai.
The jet once belonged to American Airlines and later flew 380-passenger charter flights to Hawaii before being put on fire fighting duty. The plane fought five fires last year and deposited retardant on two Kern County fires over the weekend before Monday's incident.
The state has contracted with the plane's owner, 10 Tanker Air Carrier of Victorville, for exclusive use of Tanker 910 through the 2009 fire season at a cost of $5 million per year.
Calls to 10 Tanker Air Carrier were not immediately returned.
The White Fire was about 50 percent contained by late Tuesday, Johnson said. Crews did not know when to expect full containment.
One firefighter who suffered an undisclosed "medical emergency" had to be airlifted to a hospital where he was in stable condition, he said.
Overnight, burning debris rolled beyond the northern fire line and ignited brush in the nearby Horse Thief Canyon area, Forest Service spokesman Virgil Mink said. Morning firefighting crews were mopping up those scattered flames, he said.
A state assessment team was evaluating possible fire damage to the summer homes and cabins that dot the area, but no damage had been confirmed, Mink said.
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Associated Press Writers Scott Lindlaw in San Francisco and Jacob Adelman in Los Angeles contributed to this story.
Published: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 21:55 PDT
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Is this where I get to say I told you so?
As I said when this program started and I interviewed the press liason from the company, these are not appropriate for fires in steep terrain!
The may carry more than an S2T (which is small as tankers go, so not a good measuring stick) but smaller more nimble aircraft can manuever in tight canyons. Plus the load and return time is longer on these.
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I have doubts about using a DC-10 for anything... let alone an air tanker. They had lots of problems with this aircraft when it first came out. Some major design flaws were figured out after a few accidents. This tanker was a former American Airlines Aircraft... that tells you something right there. ;)
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Here is a shot of the damage caused by that ground strike several weeks ago on
Tanker 910. Very lucky crew.
(http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/fdwildman/dc10-leftwing1.jpg)
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It doesn't show up :-\
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Here ya go: http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/fdwildman/dc10-leftwing1.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/fdwildman/dc10-leftwing1.jpg)
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Yikes!!! They got kinda close.
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(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/fdwildman/dc10-leftwing1.jpg)
I think I clicked on the wrong url link in photobucket the first time
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That sure changed the aerodynamics of the wing quick :o That is worse than I imagined. Hope the flap is just damaged and nothing structural with the wing or engine pylon. :-\ Surprised they could power up and get altitude since there is a delay from the throttle input and the response from the engines.
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A little to port and they would have lost the engine or the landing gear. Then they would have been in trouble.
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It could have lost an engine but It could have made it back to base with only engine #2 and #3. Glad the engine didn't ingest any tree limbs. The landing gear wouldn't go anywhere because it shouldn't have been down ;) Besides it would take a heck of a lot to rip off the landing gear of that beast.
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By RICHARD BROOKS
The Press-Enterprise
The nation's only jumbo fire bomber is scheduled to return to duty next week following repairs to a wing that was damaged when the converted jetliner hit several treetops and nearly crashed, officials say.
"We're thankful that no one got hurt and the damage was as minimal as it was," said Rick Hatton, managing partner of the company that owns the Victorville-based DC-10. "It's a testament to the robustness of the airplane."
The DC-10 became the nation's first giant supertanker last year when it fought fires in California and Washington.
The near-crash happened July 25 when the big jet clipped trees along a ridge top while its crew was preparing to drop 12,000 gallons of sticky red fire retardant -- 10 times the payload of California's regular air tankers -- on a blaze near Tehachapi.
"While in a left turn (onto final approach to the target) the left wing dropped downward and impacted several trees," according to a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board.
The cause of the accident has not been determined. But the pilots say they hit air turbulence immediately before they hit the trees, Hatton said.
Since the accident, two of the DC-10's captains and one co-pilot, all experienced airline pilots, have undergone refresher training for air-tanker operations and have been accompanying veteran tanker pilots in the state's medium-sized S-2T tankers, state fire aviation officials say.
The accident inflicted substantial damage on the leading and trailing edges of the jet's left wing, including portions of the leading-edge slats, the ailerons and flaps, according to the preliminary report and Hatton.
Fixing the plane amounted largely to removing and replacing the damaged parts. The No. 1 engine was unscathed.
"That was pretty lucky, because it hangs down off the left wing, and there was damage to either side of it," Hatton said.
Two earlier drops that day on the same fire were uneventful. Hatton attributed the accident to unanticipated "extreme turbulence" near the ridge.
"The description I heard from the crew ... was that there was nothing abnormal about the situation. It was going very well," Hatton said. "Then 'the bottom fell out' on the left wing due to this condition of air (turbulence) that can sometimes happen in mountain flying."
As part of its standard procedures, the jet was following a much smaller "lead plane" that points out the target and acts as a pathfinder to the drop point.
The lead plane made its run successfully. But it may have taken a slightly different path than the jet, or the turbulence may have developed after the lead plane passed the trouble spot, Hatton said.
The jet fights fires under a $5 million contract with Cal Fire, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, which operates its own fleet of 23 medium-size air tankers and uses the DC-10 as its "big gun."
Cal Fire Investigating
Cal Fire is doing its own investigation of the accident.
"We know (the cause) is not mechanical," said Chief Mike Padilla, who oversees the agency's aviation division. "There was turbulence that day, but we don't think that was the sole cause.
"We're looking at everything from the weather -- turbulence -- on that date to our procedures for lining up the aircraft (toward the target) and how the pilots were perceiving the drop."
Although it's common practice for tanker pilots to jettison their retardant during an emergency, the DC-10 crew didn't drop the 96,000-pound load.
"They did not perceive that they had a need to do that," said Padilla.
"They thought they'd hit some turbulence because they felt the bump," he said.
But the treetops apparently caused most of the bump, although the crew didn't realize it.
"As they pulled up, the lead (plane pilot) looked back ... and advised them that they had damage to the wing," Padilla said.
Emphasizing that his agency's investigation isn't complete, Padilla said that accidents rarely happen for only one reason.
Fooled by Terrain
In this case, the pilots were turning onto their final approach near a ridgeline in a type of plane that is new to firefighting and low-level mountain flying.
"Even experienced pilots get fooled by the (mountainous) terrain, which affects your perception," Padilla said. "We've had several tree strikes this year."
Preventing additional accidents requires detailed analysis of many factors, he said, ranging from the agency's procedures for lead planes and tankers to the DC-10's operating methods and the pilots' training, decisions and actions.
There are many questions to be answered, he said.
"What is the pilot perceiving? What is he looking at? How do we give him an extra margin of safety? Do we line him up sooner? Do we not turn over ridgelines?" Padilla mused. "Do we drop (the retardant) from a higher altitude?"
And since pilots can't see wind, they have to know how it behaves near ridgelines and what to expect.
"You get lift on the side where the wind's coming from," Padilla said. "And as it goes over the hill, you'll get turbulence as (it breaks like a wave at the beach and) it begins to burble.
"Aerial firefighting is more of an art than a science."
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Just heard that Tanker 910 was flying locally today.
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I too heard T-910 and Lead 90 flying today on the scanner.
Folks, if you are firefighters, law enforcement, or other emergency responders.... get your dress blues or greens in order.
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What in the H---- does that mean!!
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He doesn't have much faith in T910's ability to stay in the sky.
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Hope the crew's family and friends aren't viewing this forum.
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Hope the crew's family and friends aren't viewing this forum.
Some of the families and friends from other accidents are viewing this forum. Before you speak out about my comments, please consider some time off before you lash out and speak.
What the hell does "Trolling for Dollars" have to do with the safety of firefighters and the communities they protect?
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Calm down people!!!
With everything else but "Crop dusters" grounded, lets hope the this aircraft can make a difference in fighting fire from the sky.
In reading the news lately, it appears that the government fire agencies are just giving up due to lack of funding. "Let it burn!"
While like Clint, I feel that letting a forest burn can be a good thing, It is a travesty that such decisions are based on politics and funding.
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In reading the news lately, it appears that the government fire agencies are just giving up due to lack of funding. "Let it burn!"
While like Clint, I feel that letting a forest burn can be a good thing, It is a travesty that such decisions are based on politics and funding.
Actually, it is only ONE agency that is making that decision--the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) is the one telling the wildland fire agencies that "it is not your job to protect homes in the wildland urban interface, it is your job to fight fire on your lands." They are the ones that are telling USFS, BLM, USFWS, etc. to "let it burn."
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Actually, it is only ONE agency that is making that decision--the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) is the one telling the wildland fire agencies that "it is not your job to protect homes in the wildland urban interface, it is your job to fight fire on your lands." They are the ones that are telling USFS, BLM, USFWS, etc. to "let it burn."
What a great way to get tax payer support....
Maybe the tax payers would rather save their money and let the USFS and BLM land burn.
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I'd hope that taxpayers (especially those within areas that that the USFS and BLM protect).... would act on two things....
1) Proper clearance from wildland fire hazards, and
2) Educate your elected officials that a fire that happens in the Cucamonga or Sheep Creek Wilderness areas is not something to be "managed for resource or wilderness values".... They are to be managed to protect the communities at risk.
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I may be off hear but...
Several things cross my mind when reading this. One is that finally in the recent decade we realize the damage of putting out all fires. We created a more hazardous situation by having too many trees saved from fires and therefore don't have a healthy forest. We now back off and try to correct this situation. We try to educate and implement programs to mitigate the problem. The 2nd scary thought is that we have some bureaucrat(s) that realize that we need to let some fires burn. The problem is that if you don't try to protect those that now live in or around the areas from the problem, by backing off either due to budget reasons or strategy, we are not doing our jobs. I believe that we must protect lives and homes first, and then also do all we can to help the forest get back to a healthy state.
I'm not talking about homes alone in the middle of the forest. I'm speaking of communities that were allowed to grow (like WW).
Our job of educating people in making their homes more fire safe is even more critical, but getting this takes a long time. I don't think in the short term it is acceptable (yet) to say we will let their home burn because they took no precaution.
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This fire is as bad as the Day fire that burned on the LPF, I think those guys are milking this for whats its worth
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This fire is as bad as the Day fire that burned on the LPF, I think those guys are milking this for whats its worth
I hope you're not saying that the firefighters "are milking this for what it is worth". I come from a long line of firefighters, my grandfather was a Battalion Chief, and I can assure you that the firefighter is not "milking it for all it's worth". My relatives were trained to extinguish fires and that is what they do. My nephew was nearly overrun by fire two years ago in the fire that hit the Stevenson Ranch area of L.A. County. They were even deploying fire shelters as they knew they were in serious trouble. If it weren't for an L.A. County water dropping helicopter making a perfect drop he might not be here today. I HOPE you're talking about the politicians. If you're suggesting that the firefighters are "milking it", shame on you for having the handle of "Firemn41".
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You know, Joe, for someone who makes a heck of good living with CalFire in Riverside County, you have a lot of gall saying the Zaca fire managment team is sandbagging: "I think those guys are milking this for whats its worth." What data are you basing that statement on. Am I not reading the sit report correctly every morning or "News and Notes" on the GACC site?
Have you read any of the archived news reports chronicling the incredible difficulty of this ground? Did you know the fire grew by 4,000 acres again today?
Tell the folks, with your extensive wildland command experience, about the different considerations on the LP that the command team is facing and how they are gleefully thinking up new ways to stretch this one out. Will you share about the roadless terrain that is vertical in most places or the wilderness designation that can preclude direct attack? How about the area burning right now that has no recorded fire history on it. Do you think Engine 57 (or the recent burnover of 9 CalFire firefighters on the Inyo Complex) has anything to do with not putting people out in front of this fire. You really think they are milking it? Really? Tell that to John Hawkins and let us know his response. Are you aware that the Chief of the Forest Service sent out her personal representative to the ZACA fire and they stayed a day and went back. They were satisfied that the course that had been chosen was the one for the current situation. Your statement just floors me. You make it sound like we can influence a fire of this magnitude without weeks and weeks of hard, back breaking work only to have a blow out run to the next town.
There is an old Chinese saying, "Anyone can be a General in time of peace". Unless you can quantify what you are saying, I'd probably not pass judgement
on some pretty savvy folks doing the best they can with the hand they were dealt.
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:2thumbsup:
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Here's a link to the contract for the DC-10
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/dc10agreement.pdf
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I didn't realize that it was a 3 year contract.
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Here is something I just found out...
We know that Tanker 910 (the DC10 Supertanker) is contracted as mentioned above. But, many people are under the impression that Cal Fire owns most of their aircraft.
Some feel that the S-2T's are owned by Cal Fire, but the pilots that fly them are contracted. They also feel that the Super-Huey's Copters are owned by Cal Fire and the pilots are all Cal Fire employees.
The actual truth is that the aircraft used by Cal Fire (CDF) ARE owned by the USFS and then "permanently" loaned to CDF through the FEPS program. The federal ownership of CDF's airtankers is not widely known and it appears that some people in CDF are not aware of it either.
Here are some airworthness certificates from the FAA....
N494DF super huey...
N494DF is Assigned
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 11303 Type Registration Government
Manufacturer Name BELL Certificate Issue Date 12/05/1991
Model EH-1X Status Valid
Type Aircraft Rotorcraft Type Engine Turbo-Shaft
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51417505
MFR Year None Fractional Owner NO
Registered Owner
Name USDA FOREST SERVICE FEPP
Street 5500 PRICE AVE
City MCCLELLAN State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 95652-2421
County SACRAMENTO
Country UNITED STATES
Here is another, now an ov-10 air attack...
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 305128M68 Type Registration Government
Manufacturer Name NORTH AMERICAN Certificate Issue Date 03/10/1993
Model OV-10A Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Turbo-Prop
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51130251
MFR Year None Fractional Owner NO
Registered Owner
Name USDA FOREST SERVICE FEPP
Street 5500 PRICE AVE
City MCCLELLAN State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 95652-2421
County SACRAMENTO
Country UNITED STATES
Here is one more showing the regestered owner-USFS and the "other" owner CDF.
Tanker 83....
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 152820 Type Registration Government
Manufacturer Name MARSH AVIATION Certificate Issue Date 08/30/2001
Model S-2F3AT Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Turbo-Prop
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51205314
MFR Year 1966 Fractional Owner NO
Registered Owner
Name USDA FOREST SERVICE FEPP
Street 5500 PRICE AVE
City MCCLELLAN State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 95652-2421
County SACRAMENTO
Country UNITED STATES
Airworthiness
Engine Manufacturer AIRESEARCH Classification Restricted
Engine Model TPE331 SERIES Category Forest
A/W Date 03/28/2003
This is the most current Airworthiness Certificate data, however, it may not reflect the current aircraft configuration. For that information, see the aircraft record. A copy can be obtained at http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp
Other Owner Names
CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY AND FIRE PROTECTION
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Tanker 910 dropped twice yesterday on the Stevens Fire in Santa Clara Unit.
2,400ft altitude decending drops.
2 HOUR turn-around time from Victorville though.
(http://www.ktvu.com/2007/0831/14019942_240X180.jpg)
For video of it...
http://www.ktvu.com/news/14016712/detail.html
CUPERTINO -- For the first time, a controversial DC-10 converted into a fire-fighting air tanker swooped low over the Bay Area hills to battle a wildfire above Cupertino near the Stevens Creek Reservoir.
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910 made a number of drops in Lake Arrowhead yesterday.
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Second DC-10 to join Inland Empire firefighting fleet
By Wesley G. Hughes, staff writer, SB Sun
Article Launched: 06/21/2008 07:09:28 PM PDT
VICTORVILLE - Tanker 910 is going to have a stable-mate, maybe.
Owner 10 Tanker Corp., a private firm, is adding a second DC-10 to its fleet in July, Cal Fire Battalion Chief Bob Hill said Friday.
The big jet has already had a workout this month bombing the Humboldt Fire in the Oroville area. It made 14 drops totaling 168,000 gallons of retardant to quell the raging blaze, Hill said.
The 910's sister ship will be used on an on-call basis.
It hadn't been decided, Hill said, whether the new jet will be stationed at Victorville or a secondary station at the former McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento.
The McClellan base was used during the Humboldt Fire. The 910 made its initial run from Victorville, dumped its 12,000 gallons of retardant on the fire, then flew to McClellan for another load of retardant.
The 910 is still the biggest tanker around, at least for a while, but a company named Evergreen is bringing a Boeing 747 online.
Second to the 910 in carrying capacity is Canada's Martin Mars, Hill said. It carries 7,000 gallons of water, which it scoops as it flies from the thousands of lakes dotting the Canadian wilderness.
The 910 is a pricey item for Cal Fire. It costs $41,000 a day to keep it ready, $5,000 for flight costs and retardant is about $2 per gallon. It carries enough fuel to fly anywhere in California and return. It holds 1,400 gallons and a recent price was $6.38 a gallon - or just a hair under $9,000. It takes about 30 minutes
for the 910 to get ready for its first flight but only 15 to 20 minutes for subsequent flights. Its crew is comprised of two pilots, both captains, and a flight engineer.
With heat and Santa Ana winds, San Bernardino and Los Angeles counties are on red flag alert, Hill said, but it was otherwise quiet.
"This is the boring part," he said.
wes.hughes@inlandnewspapers.com
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