Jackson Lake rescue & body recovery

[GARY]

If it is true that humans are decendents from the animal kingdom, my bet is, we come from a very long line of lemmings.

[SkierBob]

A fence didn't keep them out of the U.S. I highly doubt a fence would keep them off your properity. 

That's just a stupid comment. There are plenty of Caucasian, Asian, and Black people that have ignored my fence. Besides there is no "fence" on the boarder and it won't keep them out. Especially not while people keep exploiting day laborers for cheap work. 

That's just another stupid comment!!!  When someone says they don't always speak English or they act like they don't speak English what nantionality do you think they're refering too?  Caucasian, Asian, Black people or Mexicans?

you have a good location for a  VALLARTA MARKET 


sounds like you've got a problem,, you deal with it.  I'm not volunteering.

-EOF

[Tomas]

Europeans (Spanish)

Not all Spanish speakers are Mexicans. And not all of us illegally cross the border. I know you are the omnipotant skier bob, but you say some ignorant stuff.

[lagomorphmom]

It's ridiculous that people ignore the signs and walk on the ice... Some of it is just ignorance and lack of education, like walking on snow on top of ice, not knowing that snow on top of ice actually makes it ice weaker.

Getting back on topic, ignorance (which is not stupidity) is it in a nutshell for most people that I see on the lake or in the Big Pines snow play areas which, by the way, include a large number of tourists or temporary students and residents from the Pacific Rim including Japan, Korea, and India/Pakistan. While Japan & Korea do have snow, I have the impression that most of these people are city folks who have not seen much in the way of mountain snow or live in temperate climates that do not have snow, just like many native So. Californians. I met a couple who grew up in Whittier, were in their late 30s or so, and who had only been up once before and that was a couple of weeks ago to bring the kids to see the snow.

Most people don't go out on the ice for the thrill of denying death, they go out for a new experience or to imitate people that they've seen on ice rinks on tv like at Rockefeller Center. As for the signs, I wish that they were a more prominent size (ok, and that they wouldn't disappear) because I think it's human nature driving up to a new, exciting experience to focus on the people having a 'good time' on the ice rather than surveying for signs when you drive up and no one is there. Last year, didn't CalTrans bring in one of those electric signs? Ultimately, as we've said, it's up to everyone to make their own best decisions and that includes all nationalities that have their kids sled in the direction of the highway, another safety issue.

[Lairdog]

[Hillbillies]

Or post a sign that says "Now Entering Arizona!" 

[Hillbillies]

Getting back on topic, ignorance (which is not stupidity) is it in a nutshell for most people that I see on the lake

[/quote]

Stupid - adj.  Lacking intelligence or common sense. 

Ignorant - adj.  Lacking knowledge or awareness in general.

I think common sense and general awareness go hand in hand.  Humans (well some) are born with survival instincts that sense danger.  Some people are stupid/ignorant.  I honestly believe that some people can't process the fact that they are standing on ice that has the potential to break away causing them to fall into freezing water.  So to the ones that ignore the signs I would just have to call them stupid.  They were provided with the knowledge, (the signage) but lack the common sense to process it ....  They is stupid! 

Alright, I am reading into this too much.  2000 years from now man will still be falling through ice..... Let them go in peace. 

[Tomas]

There were bystanders that made the situation worse yesterday. The helecopter could not land on it's first attempt because people would not move their cars and were standing around in the way of lay responders that actually knew what they were doing. The time that it took for the second pass could've been the crucial in saving Mr. Claridad's life.

[RobertW]

Someone should manage the volunteers so they are in the forest on the days they are most needed.  Xmas day is one of those days.  

You have no clue how much dedication and time the Volunteers put in trying to make a difference in this forest.  Sadly, the USFS Volunteer Patrol Group's Coordinator is taking this incident far too personally and isn't sleeping at night, feeling what if I had only gone out one more day... If you had any idea how much time the Volunteers put in between Saturday and Monday, you wouldn't make such a comment.  Working all day on patrols is very mentally and physically exhausting.

We are able to accomplish a lot, but we can't prevent people from being stupid.

Pointing fingers at the Volunteers who give up their weekends and vacation days to help educate the public about the forest and it's dangers, or, for that matter, even the paid USFS employees for not being there to prevent this incident is absolutely WRONG!

So let's blame the USFS for this incident.  Shame on the Volunteers for wanting to spend one day with their families.

One good thing will come out of this.  Next week when we are telling people about the dangers of being on the thin ice, and strongly recommend that they don't go out on the ice, we'll be able to point to this incident as what might happen if they continue.

As "Wildman" stated, it happens every winter and there is nothing you can do about.  Perhaps we should just close the forest during the winter.  Maybe putting some Orange CalTrans fencing all the way around the lake thus keeping people out would help.  No thanks, I like the forest in the winter and the way the lake looks without orange fencing.

[ChattyCathy]

I think Skier Bob is a troll.

D. No Trolling.
What is a troll? It's a person who posts something which is bound to stir people up and then sits back and watches as dozens of people jump in and start arguing. Sometimes trolls get their friends to join in or post under different names. Generally they will do anything it takes to get attention. If you see a message like this, please try and refrain from replying to it - it may well be deleted anyway.

I know you are the omnipotant skier bob, but you say some ignorant stuff.

[Surfer_Dude]

As JJ Walker would say DYNO-MITE!  Just kidding that would kill the fish also...
One could go out there with a dry suit and an ice saw and breaker but that is a lot of work.

I do not like to kid about such a matter but the volunteers can't be expected to give up all their time. Life sometimes gets in the way of volunteering.

[Breezymtns]

First of all I am very sad & disappointed to read the finger pointing that is going on here.  The volunteers that are working the Big Pines Recreation area are an incredible group of folks.  They are good at what they do & they are very passionate about their local forest.  I would like to see these very same people doing the finger pointing get off of their butts & donate their time free charge... use their own gas... pay for their own uniforms... I could go on & on but hopefully they get the picture!  Chatty Cathy you just might be right about trolling

I have experienced these issues that happen every year first hand.  It is continuous... there is nothing that anyone can do that will combat this problem.  In regards to "people just don't read signs".  My comeback has always been:  "Put up some signs that read:  FREE BEER!"  They will come in by the hundreds to collect their free beer!!!  

I do not know the reason when it snows in Southern California that people actually think they are invincible.... on thin ice???  Invincible with a four wheel drive or a two wheel drive with all terrain tires???  I believe we will never know why.  Also why do they leave their brains at home when they come to the forest???  

I have always felt that the parents or guardians of the minors on the ice should be cited for child abuse & neglect.  For the youngsters do not always know right from wrong or safe from dangerous.  It is a parent's responsibility to teach them.  In the majority of cases with families going out on thin ice... they are setting the stage for their children to grow up & repeat history when they grow up & have families.  The same goes for families that think it is fun to feed bears or other wild animals.  The consequences can be disasterous but if they are not harmed it will just happen over & over again with future generations.  

[superMom]

Robert W and other volunteers
First know that 99% of us cannot say enough good things about all the hard work you put in, and dedication you have to the forest.  Your service to all of us that live here, and to those that don't is very truly appreciated!  You cannot be everywhere at all times, and unfortunately people chose the holiday to go out to an environment they are not familiar with, and exercise very poor judgement.  And in this case, someone attempting to help, again probably not understanding conditions, lost his life.  I hope your grieving member, once he gets past the loss of this person, will think about all the others you have potentially saved from other bad situations simply because your program exists. 
The signs have been there for over a year, I know because I see them when we take our dog to Jackson Lake.  We recently adjusted the dog's running routine because we don't want him near the ice on the lake, thin or otherwise.  But we can't make others stop and think and take those same precautions.  People have been skidding on the ice on Jackson Lake every year for the over 25 years we have had a house here.  Obviously no sign or warning will ever change that - but we can surely keep trying! 
Please know you are appreciated, and try to just ignore those that feel a need to finger point when things go wrong.

[Elk]

I applaud the efforts of the ANF Volunteers. Without their efforts there would be much more disorder and nonsense going on in the Forest. The forest service is the benefactor of the service by the volunteers. The forest service needs to be more pro-active.

It is my opinion that there is not nearly enough USFS law enforcement present. The USFS has its own law enforcement however limited the resources may be. I believe I was once told that there are 3 officers for the entire ANF.

The forest service needs to take more responsibility. Is informing people of the risks and protecting them not part of their responsibility in administering these lands?

JMO

[RobertW]

[love_walnuts]

Is there any way to melt the ice quickly? It isn't thick, but I know we don't want to add salt as it would harm the fish and environment.

I like the idea of circulating the water.... A fountain or two in the middle of the lake... Just like in nature

Oh well, I was just tossing it out there for conversation and thought.
circulate the water? Build a fence?  Drain the lake?  Or put up more signs and save yourself by staying off the ice?

[love_walnuts]

I remember as a kid living in Buffalo, NY (Grand Island, actually) the frozen rivers/lake surrounding Niagara Falls.  The ice was at least six feet thick, and I wouldn't have waked on that!  So are these people just STUPID who are walking on this ice?  I just don't understand what they could be thinking.  

Most of them have little or no experience with ice other than at the nearby Ice Skating Rink. If they can walk on that, surely they can walk on this, too, or so they probably assume.

[ChrisLynnet]

To our volunteers -- PLEASE don't let what the troll said get you down! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the time and energy you all are taking to help protect us, and the sacrifices your families are making. And I feel so terrible that one of you (maybe more) is feeling guilty... what a terrible price to pay for such tremendous generosity.

And RobertW, I could not agree more that the poor man who died was a hero.

[love_walnuts]

If it is true that humans are decendents from the animal kingdom, my bet is, we come from a very long line of lemmings.

Gary, this is very witty. I hope I have your permission to repeat it (right off the cliff, of course).

[Wrightwood]