Author Topic: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program  (Read 111119 times)

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Offline SkierBob

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #20 on: Jan 07, 10, 02:03:24 AM »
According to their website, logging and the thinning of trees is allowed by permit.


The logging in the Inyo is fuel wood, not timber for lumber or pulp.  It's small time compared to a timber sale for lumber.

What had been going on in the Tongass was devistating especially when considering how much $$ forest service was selling the timber for.  There's not much logging in Southeast Alaska anymore.  The Indians are the only ones selling off their timber and ruining their land.  They're pretty short sighted, but then again they also dump all their old cars and waste in the ocean.   

The only logging I'm aware of is for intertie of the electrical grid. 

Offline K9luvr

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #21 on: Jan 07, 10, 03:36:48 AM »
The Recreation Fee program is a national program.  Under laws passed back in the 1960's, the FS was allowed to charge for campgrounds and a few other fees.  With the 1994 congress, they decided that in order to balance the budget, there needed to be "end user pays" fees.  Thus started the Recreation Fee Demonstration program.  That started the Adventure Pass program on the 4 southern CA forests.  There were also various other fee programs on forests throughout the US.  This was supposed to supplement the recreation budgets on the forests to do improvements, deferred maintenance (backlog), etc.  At the same time, a "perfect storm" occurred in the budgeting process.  The forest service gets a "constrained budget"  The way I like to explain it is "you get 50 widgets" or "you get a 10 inch pie."  Now, congress dictates how many widgets are for wildlife, recreation, soils, watershed, fuels, etc. (or how big each slice is for each discipline).  The only exception to this is fire.  The presuppression/suppression budget is calculated by adding up how much it cost to suppress the last 10 years of fires and divide by 10.  That is how many widgets they get or how big a slice of the pie they get.  In 1993, this was roughly 13% of the total piece of the pie.  Massive, large scale wildfires started in 1994 and have continued in most summers since.  In 2010 fire's cut is roughly 50% of the pie.  So, given we only have a 10" pie, and now half of it goes to fire, it only goes to figure that there is less for wildlife, recreation, soils, fuels management, etc.  So the "extra" that was supposed to go to funding recreation from the fee program is now helping to prop up the rapidly declining system.  It is being used to fund employees, pay the fee at the dump to dump all the trash generated by all those visitors, buy toilet paper for the restrooms, etc.  I do know that for the Big Pines area Adventure Pass monies were used to fix up the Big Pines Clubhouse (that was condemned prior to the rennovation), fix up Apple Tree and Peavine picnic areas, helped pay for the rennovation of the "Comfort Station" across from Big Pines Clubhouse.  It also pays salaries for some of the personnel that work in the area. 

The "Forest Service" was established in 1905 with the "Transfer Act" that transferred the "Bureau of Forestry" from DOI to become the "Forest Service" under the Department of Agriculture.  However, the budget for the Forest Service is still in the Interior Appropriations bill and not the USDA appropriations bill.  The first chief of the Forest Service was Gifford Pinchot who received his forestry training in Germany.  He believed trees were a "crop" to be harvested just like wheat and corn.  If you look at the enabling legislation of the forest service, even under the 1897 Organic Act managing "forest reserves" was for timber production and watershed protection.  There is nothing that says that the agency must turn a profit when selling timber.  As for logging, under the old Forest Plans, there was an "Allowable Sale Quantity" or ASQ that was a ceiling of the maximum amount that could be cut on a sustainable basis.  Using old FORPLAN modeling that was single dimentional, the system was flawed.  Also, a lot of the old "timber beasts" used to immediately make the ASQ the "Target" that was to be sold every year.  It was a nighmare.  I don't know if the new forest plans will have ASQ in them, the 4 So CA forests were exempted from ASQ because there is such a small market for the timber if it were to be harvested.  There was some timber harvest over on the LA River District prior to the Station Fire. 

The Tongass and the Chugach NFs in Alaska are a whole different ball game.  They have all kinds of contracts and agreements that I don't know much about except for the fact that I would never want to work or live up there....

Offline Toolman

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #22 on: Jan 07, 10, 03:30:46 PM »
Cid. that was a very good explanation. Some I had read about, such as the pie split theory but didin't know the history behind the program... thanks. more information we can pass along to the public in the field. I only wrote 10 NNC books the last two weekends.... looks like I better step it up a bit... ;)

Offline in my dreams

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #23 on: Jan 07, 10, 04:45:33 PM »
I was so ticked off when the adventure pass was enacted. Again, that's what taxes are for.

It totally excludes people who live paycheck-to-paycheck. And if you can't afford a pass, you sure need the forest for peace of mind!

Personally, I quit going hiking in Ice House Canyon for years to protest. I'm not sure if you're allowed to park up at  the Mt Baldy ski Lifts without one, but I used to do that to take my niece to the snow. It wasn't until I had kids that I bit the bullet and bought one. I still don't like it, but during the current economic crisis, I'm not going to complain.

Offline ChrisLynnet

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #24 on: Jan 07, 10, 05:34:56 PM »
I don't have anything philosophically against the Adventure Pass because our national forests are so poorly funded. I just wish I knew that it was going directly to our local forest. I still can't figure that part out.

BTW, I've lived paycheck to paycheck but $30 just isn't that hard to do across the span of a year. And believe me, I've been there.

GRAHAM_RANCH

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #25 on: Jan 07, 10, 06:48:21 PM »
Where does the adventure pass money go? The USFS , on their own website admits: Several national forests have embraced new management concepts and solutions in this era of insufficient appropriated funding, including the funds of recreation passes.  To that end, the southern California forests have developed some of the most progressive partner relationships in the entire agency; the partnership is with volunteer non-profit groups to maintain forests. The money...it surely isn't going to where we think it is.

Offline lagomorphmom

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #26 on: Jan 07, 10, 07:20:17 PM »
Rather than rail against the pass here or protest by not using the forest, it would be better to contact your local U.S. congressman as well as members of the congressional committees that oversee how the funds are distributed to protest the matter since it is congress that decides the budget.

Offline SkierBob

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #27 on: Jan 07, 10, 07:23:07 PM »
Rather than rail against the pass here or protest by not using the forest, it would be better to contact your local U.S. congressman as well as members of the congressional committees that oversee how the funds are distributed to protest the matter since it is congress that decides the budget.

Congress?  Those crooked basxxxds are worthless, pay the 5 bucks and enjoy the great outdoors.   Life's to short!

GRAHAM_RANCH

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #28 on: Jan 07, 10, 09:35:54 PM »
Aamen, skierbob,

despite my dislike about the program, I buy the year pass to spent time in the quiet. Who knows if its buckling down under a screw ball government plans...but, I must admit that it helps me avoid neg. contact with the rangers and the price of advil for the headache

Offline RobertW

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #29 on: Jan 07, 10, 10:13:57 PM »
I want to correct any misunderstandings about how the USFS personnel in the field feel about issuing NNCs or citations for Adventure Pass Violations. 

Some may have gotten the idea that they like writing people up for it and take great pleasure in ruining one's day in the forest.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most of the USFS personnel out of Big Pines, including those who are paid and volunteers, don't really care for the program either.  In fact some have been fairly vocal about their desire that the program end all together. 

Believe me, we have a lot of other things we could be doing in the Forest, but it's part of the job.

Typically, when heading out on Patrol we will "plan" our day and what we want to get accomplished.  Usually Adventure Pass compliance never takes more than 50% of our day except on very heavy snow play days.  A lot of days we'll only write a very small handfull of NNCs and on other days we won't write any at all.  It all depends on what the needs are for the day.

The good thing about so many NNCs being written and Adventure Passes being sold over these heavy snow player days, is hopefully some higher-ups taking note of the heavy use and possibly getting more people assigned here to this part of the forest.   ;D  This has already happened.

FYI, we have two more "paid" USFS REC people (Rec-35 and Rec-36) assigned to our part of the forest this winter.   :2thumbsup:

Offline lagomorphmom

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #30 on: Jan 08, 10, 12:43:20 AM »
I want to correct any misunderstandings about how the USFS personnel in the field feel about issuing NNCs or citations for Adventure Pass Violations. ......

The good thing about so many NNCs being written and Adventure Passes being sold over these heavy snow player days, is hopefully some higher-ups taking note of the heavy use and possibly getting more people assigned here to this part of the forest.   ;D  This has already happened.

Correct Bob, health and welfare are first on the list, public education after that. As you said, most of the public are very nice and fun to interact with.

I have to add, however, that as long as the AP program is the main vehicle in place that brings money back to the area to support many of the high use issues that we have locally such as buying boatloads of toilet paper for the bathrooms (for those that use it), more bathrooms (for those that use them), bathroom vault cleaning (for those that use those instead of the floor), more trashcans (for those that use them) and more trash monies spent at the dump, not to mention the maintenance/improvement issues mentioned above like Big Pines and the bathrooms across the way, I will not feel guilty for working the system as it exists - as a local, I would like to be able to enjoy the forest, not a junkyard.

As SkierBob implies, the whole "I don't like the AP program argument is irrelevant" if anyone would like to enjoy our local beauty until powers that be directly fund the high concentrations of urban use that we see. And honestly, why shouldn't there be an end user program? Those of you that don't care for the AP program would be even more upset if you lived in an area with a quiet local national forest and most of your hard earned tax dollars went to urban forests and those all over the west with high fire danger.

We are lucky under current system to have local cost cutting solutions that save money for some of these problems so that we can get more for less, such as the boys from the Fenner Camp who pick up trash and those Big Pines volunteers who also do their turn power washing the bathrooms as that is the only way to clean them.

Quote
Graham Ranch wrote "Where does the adventure pass money go?"
I thought that was covered in the Angeles link that I posted for you? If you would like more detail, it would be more constructive, as I suggested, to try the number listed in the lower right frame to see if more is accounting is available. At the minimum, perhaps you could get a list of physical improvements.

Offline in my dreams

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #31 on: Jan 08, 10, 07:08:45 AM »
BTW, I've lived paycheck to paycheck but $30 just isn't that hard to do across the span of a year. And believe me, I've been there.

When you figure in the cost of gas, its just one more added pressure and keeps people in the margins away. A person shouldn't have to scrimp and save to go someplace that is a resource for all to enjoy. To charge a fee is exclusionary; and on principle, I don't think it should exist. I think I hear John Muir rolling over in his grave. . . 

(Don't even get me started on tolls for non-private roads!  ;) )

Offline K9luvr

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #32 on: Jan 08, 10, 01:33:43 PM »
BTW, I've lived paycheck to paycheck but $30 just isn't that hard to do across the span of a year. And believe me, I've been there.

When you figure in the cost of gas, its just one more added pressure and keeps people in the margins away. A person shouldn't have to scrimp and save to go someplace that is a resource for all to enjoy. To charge a fee is exclusionary; and on principle, I don't think it should exist. I think I hear John Muir rolling over in his grave. . . 

(Don't even get me started on tolls for non-private roads!  ;) )

With all due respect, if you truly feel this way, wanking on this forum is relatively useless.  Use that energy to contact your congressional representative and tell them to come up with better ways to fund the agency.  The big issue is to come up with ways to fund large scale wildfires, emergencies, etc. and NOT have that come out of the constrained budget.  Fund the agency at the same level it is now but don't make it pay for these large scale disasters out of the regular budget.  THAT is what hurts the regular "program of work."  Three percent of the wildfires take somewhere in the neighborhood of 97% of the fire budget (that 50% of the pie I talked about earlier). 

Personally--I HATE the program.  I too feel that public land should be free.  But the reason I really hate it is it is a pain in the tukas to administer.  We still have the "iron rangers" here where people put money into the fee tubes.  We have to collect it, count it, deposit it in the bank, play "meter maid" instead of doing the "real" job.  People break into the tubes and steal money, not to mention urinating into the tubes and doing other things I won't mention on a family friendly forum.  We have to handle all the money with gloves on because of "bodily fluids."  If you really feel strongly about getting rid of the program--go to the people who can do something about it, don't whine and complain to the people who are directed to administer it but have no power to change it.  You do! 

And John Muir and Gifford Pinchot had a big falling out over "preservation vs. conservation."  Old Johnny didn't like the Forest Reserves waaaay before he died.... ;)

Offline K9luvr

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #33 on: Jan 08, 10, 01:55:03 PM »
Where does the adventure pass money go?

It goes to pay the trash truck driver's salary.  It pays for the trash truck.  It pays the dump fees at the dump.  It pays the salary of a couple of the employees on the district.  It pays for toilet paper, trash bags, paint and graffitti removal supplies.  I already said about the reconstruction that it paid for on several of the recreation sites in the Big Pines area. 

I started working for the FS in 1978.  No, the current FS is not what it was back in the 70's.  And it never will be.  It has changed, some for good, some for bad just like the rest of the world.  Time to move on and figure out how to go from here.

Offline RobertW

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #34 on: Jan 08, 10, 05:36:07 PM »
Quote
Where does the adventure pass money go?

It goes to pay the trash truck driver's salary.  It pays for the trash truck.  It pays the dump fees at the dump.  It pays the salary of a couple of the employees on the district.  It pays for toilet paper, trash bags, paint and graffitti removal supplies.  I already said about the reconstruction that it paid for on several of the recreation sites in the Big Pines area. 

We have four volunteers out regularly during the week handling a lot of the graffitti removal.  Until just recently they were buying a lot of the supplies out of their own pockets.  People need to know the type of dedicated volunteers that come out of Wrightwood and how committed they are to keeping our part of the forest a place that people can enjoy.

Volunteer 17, who was highlighted in this month's Big Pines Volunteer Newsletter, was quoted as saying:  "Trash in the forest is a major problem.  I can complain about it, which I do, or I can clean it up.  I choose the later usually."

Few realize how much toilet paper it takes to fill the restrooms just in our area, Area 12, of the Angeles National Forest that the Big Pines Station is responsible for.

It takes nearly 110 rolls of toilet paper to fully stock the restrooms (I'm not counting the Concession Campgrounds which the concesionaires are responsible for).  It takes 26 rolls just to stock the "comfort station", which I call the "flushers" across the street from the Big Pines Station.   Over the heavy use weekends we just had, the "flushers" had to be restocked EVERY DAY!!

I'm happy for every cent the Adventure Pass Program may bring back into our district.

Offline Toolman

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #35 on: Jan 08, 10, 05:51:18 PM »

Offline SkierBob

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #36 on: Jan 08, 10, 05:57:00 PM »

On N4 there's one between Mile High and Jackson Lake.  I don't drive the other way much.

Anyone that spends any time in the mountains and doesn't carry a roll of TP isn't prepaired  :o


Offline Toolman

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #37 on: Jan 08, 10, 06:14:33 PM »
On N4 there's one between Mile High and Jackson Lake.  I don't drive the other way much.

Anyone that spends any time in the mountains and doesn't carry a roll of TP isn't prepaired  :o



 Ok Bob you got the one on the north side located at Jackson Lake.  ;)

 I forgot to mention that we get asked many times how do you sign up to do what we do as volunteers. It's simple, stop by the Big Pines Station and speak to the big ugly guy behind the desk. :o

 What we do isn't glamorous and if you can't deal with what goes on such as the activities that occur in bathrooms and other places  ::)  injury responses, changing trash can liners out and dumping trash, protocol training, then maybe it isn't for you.

 The real reward is being part of a public service that gives back emotionally.

Offline Elk

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #38 on: Jan 08, 10, 08:11:13 PM »

Offline Toolman

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Re: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program
« Reply #39 on: Jan 08, 10, 09:05:29 PM »
Thanks for that map link Elk  ;) I purposly didn't want to post  that yet to see how many people that frequent the area actually pay attention... now I can move on.

 Upon looking at the map you will notice that it is broken up into rec areas. The west boundary for our are (12) is at Vincent Gap. No AP is required until you reach Islip Saddle. Little Jimmy campground is exempt because it is a walk in campground only. The wilderness areas are walkin only as well. You will also notice Table Mtn. areas are required to have an AP displayed except in the host campground. Which includes the turn out looking south towards Mtn. High while entertaining yourself along the paved service road.

 We are understanding that if you stop to use a bathroom, take pictures, even have a lunch we, or at least I don't write an NNC. If the vehicle is parked and the owner isn't around, then that will be dealt with.

 One will also notice there is a sign advising visitors between the parking lots of Mtn. High East and West parking lots that vehicles beyond this point must display and AP. Nobody is going to like what I'm about to say but here goes.

 You do NOT have to display an AP East of that boundary sign from the location I just discribed. Which also meens we do NOT write NNC's east of the boundary sign. All of those vehicles you see parked along Hyw.2 clear back into town are not required to display an AP. There is a lot of "legal" parking along that stretch of road. There is a lot of "illegal" parking along the stretch of raod as well. So what it boils down to is that those locations mentioned are CHP's responsibility that patrols that area to issue citations or tow illegally parked cars along Hwy.2 not for the FS to be concerend about. I thought I would make that clear as it's been mentioned before why doesn't the FS do something about the parked cars along the Hwy. Simple, not our job. FS Leo's could write actual parking tickets but were do you draw the line with so few bodies to go around and they as well as us on patrol are required to respond to higher priority calls such as injuries or knuckle heads leaving campfires burning. As mentioned several times previously in this thread, health and welfare comes first response not parking tickets.

 I think we've answered most questions especially k9luvr who we do miss from being up here. We do the best we can with what we have and it certainly could be worse.

 Please don't hesitate to ask questions here, myself or someone else will try to help or give reference.