Author Topic: Agenda 21  (Read 135100 times)

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raven

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #40 on: Apr 17, 14, 09:38:13 PM »
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-YYn31QEXY

Offline ChrisLynnet

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #41 on: Apr 17, 14, 11:21:07 PM »
Snopes is getting into the act on Bundy "conspiracy" theories. http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp

Offline TimG

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #42 on: Apr 18, 14, 12:11:15 AM »
The Harry Reid/solar angle is something I could see, that sounds plausible -- but though I'm not big fan of Snopes, they seemed to have done a good job of debunking it.  They Breitbart article they link to is a very good read (I assume you guys like Breitbart): http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

Anyway, Raven, I like you and I'd never say you or anyone should be quiet about anything -- I just happen to disagree on this one.  And chem trials.  Wealth-extraction, currency manipulation, war as a racket, the 4th amendment, etc., I'm with you.

Offline tcaarabians

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #43 on: Apr 18, 14, 08:07:45 AM »
I think debate is a healthy way to discuss issues of importance to us. Clearly, zoning and land use are important issues ala the recommendations in Agenda 21.  I really don't want to see P.H. rezoned to allow more structures per lot. I like the rural atmosphere here. And, I would truly dislike it if someone could build a six-story hotel near my property. I also think it is perfectly ok to question what the results of Agenda 21 could be and to raise those questions for discussion. Thankfully,  the U.N. didn't include shopping carts in the white paper.

Legislation is introduced to solve a problem. Unfortunately, it often creates ten more problems.

Raven - The link you posted back a bit here on the proposed regulations to expand the Clean Water Act and authorities of various agencies was an interesting read. The hyperbole got in the way a bit. Most telling to me is that the rule is posted for public comment and the scientific study upon which the rule will be based is not completed. Say what? That's 'cart before the horse' to me.

One of my mottos  is to 'question authority.'  So, lettuce return to the debate. cheryl o7o


Offline K9luvr

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #44 on: Apr 18, 14, 05:17:43 PM »
US Department of the Interior
Bureau of Land Grabbing Maggots

Hmmm.  Interesting.  The BLM used to be the "General Land Office" who's job it was to sell off or grant federal land to people who followed the laws of the time (there was a lot of blatant fraud but that is a story for a different time).  Under the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act, it gave the new "BLM" and other federal agencies (except in Alaska and a few other areas) the legal authority to regulate grazing on "reserve" lands.  The BLM still sells off isolated parcels of BLM managed land.  So how exactly is this a land grab? 

And I own the land that Mr. Bundy is grazing on and getting a profit from as much as he does--but he is doing it for free.  So where do I send him his bill for my share?  ;D

raven

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #45 on: Apr 18, 14, 05:45:43 PM »

raven

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #46 on: Apr 18, 14, 05:47:52 PM »

Offline lagomorphmom

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #47 on: Apr 18, 14, 05:58:15 PM »
And I own the land that Mr. Bundy is grazing on and getting a profit from as much as he does--but he is doing it for free.  So where do I send him his bill for my share?  ;D
Where's the !#$%# "Like" button???

Offline tcaarabians

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #48 on: Apr 18, 14, 07:00:45 PM »
I think Bundy's argument is that his family owned the land before the BLM was created... or grazed there before the BLM was created. At least, I think that is his argument. Therefore, in his opinion, he doesn't owe them squat for grazing his cattle there. The BLM clearly disagrees with his analysis. Thus, they seized his cattle and then the BLM  backed down after a gun toting showdown (this could also be attributed to a new head of the BLM). I guess some of the cattle may have died according to another story posted here.  This story will make a great movie of the week some day.

Back at the ranch here (sorry I had to go there).. the Bundy story kind of embraces the issues that the folks opposed to Agenda 21 are raising.  It is the 'don't mess with my property/land/way of life/ the American way/you bloody bureaucratic dimwit/expletives deleted sort of philosophy. I like those people myself. I don't usually agree with them.. but I like them anyway. I think they're more like the men and women that founded this country than a lot of city planners are these days.

We likely need a lot less bureaucracy in our lives. I know I do. That reminds me I need to send in for my dog's new license. And, at the same time.. I think we would be fools not to pay attention to what we can do to protect our environment and communities. It is how to do it that is the rub here. IMHO. cheryl o7o


Offline TimG

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #49 on: Apr 18, 14, 07:46:35 PM »
The BLM clearly disagrees with his analysis.

As do two separate court decisions.

Offline SkierBob

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #50 on: Apr 19, 14, 04:28:20 PM »
Quote
So how exactly is this a land grab?

I don't think it is.  If we allow him to graze on public land for free it's welfare ranching, and I want in on it.  Times change and as population increases we can't always keep doing what we've always done. 

 If he ever did keep a low profile, he doesn't have that going for him anymore 

In the videos I've seen I don't think Bundy represents himself well at all

His grazing days are numbered

 

 


   

Offline Jim Wilkins

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #51 on: Apr 19, 14, 05:28:50 PM »
I'd would post a Youtube video but it's embarrassing to listen to the Bundy character.  Last interview I saw on Fox, he was claiming the US Government was a foreign entity while all the "militia" paraded behind the interview with American flags on horseback.  This was another point of view on the subject that shows another side of the story....without any reference to Agenda 21 or any other conspiracy.

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/17/fox_news_demented_poster_boy_why_angry_rancher_cliven_bundy_is_no_patriot/

raven

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #52 on: Apr 19, 14, 08:49:12 PM »

Offline tcaarabians

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #53 on: Apr 20, 14, 08:07:23 AM »
Laughing at that one. cheryl o7o

Offline lagomorphmom

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #54 on: Apr 20, 14, 08:37:17 AM »
Still laughing here as well. Nice break in the action here.

raven

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raven

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Offline tcaarabians

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #57 on: Apr 22, 14, 11:09:17 AM »
Ok, I guess we're branching out here from "Agenda 21" and talking about government intrusion and so-called stupidity.. basically what can often go wrong with government bureaucrats that don't know how to listen to their constituents. So, while not specific to Agenda 21.. the issues are the same. IMHO. There is always going to be another side to any government action.

Raven.. The Pitkin videos were great.  I was struck by how calm the discussion was between the citizens and the Forest reps. Calm, but forceful nonetheless.. those folks were not backing down. I never did understand why the Forest Service personnel decided to close the road.  But, that road is open now. And, I did enjoy when they were saying 'hey.. we're opening that road.. so where are you going to take us to jail?"

Jim.. I thought the video of Clive Bundy wherein he called the U.S. an alien nation.. or somesuch .. likely didn't expand enough on why he said that. The man may not be articulate. .. he's just trying to save his way of life. And, it may be past time for him to adjust to how things are now versus 100 years ago. I think he may have won a battle but he's going to lose the war on not paying for grazing rights.

This brings us to civil disobedience ala Bundy and Pitkin and many, many more .. those times we just stand up collectively and say 'no'. Our country has a wonderful tradition of doing that. And, sometimes those that do go to jail, are beaten or killed and their homes burnt to the ground. That is always inspiring in documentaries.. but rather tough to do at the time.

I don't feel that the proposals in Agenda 21 rise to that level. I respect that for some they do. I believe we should face the fact that our planning and zoning laws in CA and its respective counties likely already rise to and exceed the recommendations in Agenda 21.  We could focus on whether there are new proposals here in CA & SBD that have been formulated on those recommendations.  But, why focus now?

All this said.. and I'm sorry to have rattled on.. I must now go figure out if it is still legal for me to spit downwind. cheryl o7o




Offline SkierBob

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #58 on: Apr 22, 14, 03:04:23 PM »
I found this an interesting read. 

G. Hardin - "Living on a Lifeboat" (in James E. White text)
Hardin's thesis: People in rich nations should do nothing for the people of poor nations, and we should close our borders to them.

Although people talk about our common bonds here on "spaceship earth," that metaphor is misleading. We don't have one ruler, a captain, who makes sure everyone behaves. A better metaphor is a lifeboat. The rich people of the world are in one of the lifeboats, and the poor are in the water, drowning. Most people are drowning. Americans aren't.

 How should we respond to the drowning people if our boat is almost full?

We could be charitable to all. And we'll all drown! (The Christian view is identical to Marxism here.)
We could be charitable to some people. But this will never be fair in the selection process.
We could do nothing for them, and survive while they die.
Let's now complicate it:

Reproduction is faster among the poor nations. Soon, there will 7 people in poverty for every "rich" one. Assuming we should share everything, why should each of us support 7 others?
Ruin of the commons: If we give them access instead of a share, we must assume some of those people will be more selfish than we are. The result of equal access is always harmful when it comes to shared resources. (Note that enforcing rules to protect what is common amounts to NOT making it commo
Some people want a limited sharing through a World Food Bank. But it's not a bank, since the rich deposit and the poor take. It's a TRANSFER system. Result: WE will pay, and enrich agri-business and shipping companies, to benefit people when it's not a real emergency. Low-frequency certainties aren't genuine emergencies.

Ratchet Effect

In nature, over-population is self-correcting (e.g., famine and disease).But there is a lot of suffering in the process. Our efforts to stop the suffering are what break the natural cycle.

Our interventions replace the natural cycle with a pejoristic ratchet system. Each step is worse than the last, by escalating the number of mismanaged poor.

Eco-Destruction

You can't increase food without reducing other resources of many types (e.g., we increase pollution). In the long run, future generations must accept greatly decreased quality of life in order to reduce suffering now. This is backwards!.

Immigration

What are the real reasons that rich countries permit immigration? To get cheap labor. But generous immigration means that, over time, we prefer to benefit the children of immigrants, because they will take over the commons (example: compare the lives of Native Americans with those of the people who immigrated into North Dakota.)

Door-Shutting

The additional problem with immigration is where to draw a line. If we think it's wrong to stop or slow immigration for OUR benefits, then we must think "our" riches aren't really ours. But then they should not go to immigrants. They should go back to Native Americans. But of course that's not right, either, since that just puts most Americans into poverty, and almost no one benefits. (Hardin assumes that questions of benefit are more important here than questions of justice.)

http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/phil%20115/Hardin-on-lifeboat.htm

Offline Joe Schmoe

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #59 on: Apr 22, 14, 04:18:54 PM »
That's clinical, selectively assumptive, psychopathic bull.