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Offline Leftfield

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Re: What's your level of earthquake preparedness?
« Reply #40 on: Aug 05, 08, 10:16:42 AM »
I wonder if a big storage tank for the town would be more effective than every household having one or more 55 gal drums?

Well the problem with "a storage tank" would be the same as for storing drums of water.  It would be best a) to have not just one big tank but 2-3 smaller tanks in the event one or become inaccessable or damaged.  b) to have these tanks above ground eliminate the need for a pump but they will most likely be toppled in a major earthquake.  Therefore IMHO, they really need to be buried somewhere but a manual pumps need to be attached or easily retrievable from somewhere like the firehouse.  c) even with these tanks, we still need to store some water on our own.  It certainly would be more convenient since water is really quite dense and heavy. 

Offline RobertW

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« Reply #41 on: Aug 05, 08, 10:23:11 AM »
I am also partial to the MSR water purifier.  I've used it for years backpacking and its pump action makes it very easy to force water through the filter (some are very difficult to use) and it attaches to a standard wide mouth Nalgene bottle.



As Clint suggested, everyone should invest in one.  While bleach or water purification tablets will work, everything I've read said that such chemicals are not really intended for human consumption. I also have never tasted water treated in this way.

Question:

While providing water for hygine and washing, I've read that swimming pool and spa water should never be used for drinking as the chemicals will make you ill.  Does anyone know if "distilling" spa water will leave the chemicals out of it?  We do not use the typical chemicals like Chlorine or Bromine in our spa.  We use Baqua Spa which is much more gentle on the skin.  Would distilling water remove such chemicals from the water or unlike salts and minerals, have they bonded with the molecules?  Any chemists out there?

As far as the water heater goes, most of them have many inches of sediment in them, effectively blocking the spicket. Something to keep in mind.

Offline RobertW

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« Reply #42 on: Aug 06, 08, 09:24:14 PM »

Offline Leftfield

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« Reply #43 on: Aug 07, 08, 08:27:57 AM »
The problem that I see using pool/spa water is the need for electricity to keep the water running through the filtering system.  Since the pool/spa is rather quite opened, after a few standing days, it will start to turn cloudy which is indicative of algae and other microbes.  I would start "bottling" the water ASAP but to hold that much water, we are back to using the 55 gal drums.  Anyway, the first few days, the water should be fine though it wont be very "tasty".

Offline RobertW

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« Reply #44 on: Aug 07, 08, 11:46:30 AM »
You are right.  The pool/spa would be nothing more than a standing body of water which could quickly become contaminated.  I would never use such water without filtering it through the filter mentioned above, boiling it or distilling it.

I raised this question because I've read on several emergency/survial sites that you cannot use pool or spa water for drinking water because the chemicals are harmful.  But they didn't say whether you could safely remove the chemicals before drinking the water.  Another concern are the carcinogins that are present in Pool water.

Quote
"The bad news is that most pool water contains some level of trihalomethanes (THM) - usually in the parts per billion
(ppb)range. These THMs are not allowed in drinking water because they are carcinogenic. One example is chloroform.
There is no regulation on THMs in pool or spa water. Mostly because you are swimming in it and not drinking or ingesting it. Absorbtion is minimal."

"Extrapolating some numbers on cyanuric acid and its dangers - an adult person would have to consume about 4 pounds of pure CYA to have a problem (actually only 50% would have a problem). Four pounds is about how much CYA is in a 15,000-gallon pool. So you would have to drink the whole pool to have a problem."

"So on a temporary or emergency basis, you can drink pool water."

(taken from: http://www.southshoregunitepools.com/resources/pdfs/pool_water_okay.pdf)

So, my concern was more about being able to remove the chemicals from the water and whether the above methods of purifying water would do so, rather than purifying the water from bio-organisms that would be harmful.

I'm begining to believe that the chlorine or other chemicals used in a pool will not present much of a problem after a few days.  After all, tap water is usually treated with a chlorine compound, although not in the same concentrations and pets regularly will use the pool for drinking water. If my research is correct the chemicals will either bleed off as a gas through evaporation over a short amount of time or will bond with organic material that can be easily removed through the use of a filter or distilling it.

Truth be known, if it comes down to running out of good drinking water and having a spa sitting there full to the brim, I'd take whatever filtering measures I could and then just take my chances.  I've had "the runs" before.   ;D

So my Emergency plan is to have as much drinking water stored to last 14 days and to use the Spa water for cleaning and washing.  But if necessary I'd use the spa water for drinking only after filtering, boiling or distilling it.

If anybody has come up with some different research about the harmful effects of using pool or spa water for drinking or has information showing that I'm heading down the wrong road with this thinking, I'd like to hear it.
   

clint

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« Reply #45 on: Aug 07, 08, 02:45:51 PM »
Instead of counting on the spa for drinking, get a fire pump and use it to help extinguish the fires that will follow a major earthquake.


Hillbillies

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« Reply #46 on: Aug 07, 08, 07:37:41 PM »
Instead of counting on the spa for drinking, get a fire pump and use it to help extinguish the fires that will follow a major earthquake.



Roger!

CA5th

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« Reply #47 on: Aug 07, 08, 09:59:37 PM »
That would work if the pool or spa still contains water.  After a mojor EQ >=7.2 there won't be much water left in most pools.  The plumbing will probably crack and drain the water out or the pool will pop out of the ground some distance.  Spas, if covered, will keep most of their water.  Otherwise,  no water.....

Some will survive and be usable.  Depends on the whim or nature.

Offline Leftfield

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« Reply #48 on: Aug 08, 08, 10:42:22 AM »
In retrospect, I doubt there will be a study on the safety on drinking pool/spa water because each pool/spa will be maintained according to its owner's whim.   Some will save a nickle by not putting in the necessary amount of chemicals and others will put in "extra" to be on the "safe" side.  Since we have a lot of weekenders, I can easily see some spas not being maintained regularly. 

If I had a spa that Ive been maintaining regularly and properly, I would "experiment" to see if pH and whatever else is in the proper range then drink a small amount of water now and see if I suffer any ill effects.  If all is well, then I will know that in the future, I have a temporary source of drinking water.  Keep in mind that toxic effect of chemicals are dependent on concentration and time of exposure.  To me, its like cigarettes.   Youre more likely to get cancer if you smoke for a number of years at a high volume.   Your chance of getting cancer would be negligible if you smoke just cigars just twice a year.

Offline ChattyCathy

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« Reply #49 on: Aug 15, 08, 10:56:08 AM »
I have three 55-gallon jugs of water - but how am I going to get the water out? 

I have a ham radio, but I keep it plugged in in the upstairs bathroom.  What if I can't get to it?

I had food stored - but the emergency food is gone (this economy is kicking my a$$!).  I saw a container at Costco that contained 200 meals for $69.  When I can, I'm going to buy it.  I have a feeling that food won't tempt me in a non-emergency situation.

I have my CERT bag, but where do I keep it?  By the door?  By the ham radio?  What if my house collapses?  Where's the best place?  The car? 

I'm trying to be prepared, but I have a long way to go.

Offline Nolena

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« Reply #50 on: Aug 15, 08, 12:30:38 PM »
Well, I've learned which native plants and things (insects  :o ) to eat, and how to prepare them, and where the springs are in the area. And I know how to grow food. I think I can live without a market.
Maybe we need to get back to basic living.
In any case, we will need each other in the event of catastrophy. We have a lot more brain as a group than as individuals.  :)

clint

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Re: What's your level of earthquake preparedness?
« Reply #51 on: Aug 15, 08, 04:25:19 PM »
I have three 55-gallon jugs of water - but how am I going to get the water out? 

Hand pump. Siphon. Ice pick. In that order.

I have a ham radio, but I keep it plugged in in the upstairs bathroom.  What if I can't get to it?

Put it where you can get to it.

I had food stored - but the emergency food is gone (this economy is kicking my a$$!).  I saw a container at Costco that contained 200 meals for $69.  When I can, I'm going to buy it.  I have a feeling that food won't tempt me in a non-emergency situation.

I have my CERT bag, but where do I keep it?  By the door?  By the ham radio?  What if my house collapses?  Where's the best place?  The car? 

Yes. In the car is good. In a heavy locker near a sturdy corner of the house. Or under a large window so if the wall fails it's easier to dig out.



I'm trying to be prepared, but I have a long way to go.


A good way to go is a portable shed outside if you can protect it from overheating and freezing. The car has the same issues. I've had water bottles freeze in the car in winter.

Offline BikingBrian

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« Reply #52 on: Sep 13, 08, 12:58:24 AM »
"As crazy as it sounds, if we really need to plan to be isolated for a couple of weeks in the event of a major disaster, I wonder if a big storage tank for the town would be more effective than every household having one or more 55 gal drums?"

Uh, where do you think your water comes from now? There are multiple "big storage tanks" all around the community. The problem is that if a quake damages the pipes, many of which are quite old, the delivery system will fail. You can't just store water in a tank indefinitely. It has to be cycled through to stay fresh. Further, the PUC regulates water storage. The water company has wanted to increase our storage capacity for some time but the PUC says what we have is adequate for the community and won't permit expansion of the current storage.

Just finally getting around to reading replies a month later!  Of course I knew that water comes from storage tanks in town, what I was thinking was an additional amount of storage added to this system (and not sitting stagnant), equivalent to the number of households times the number of gallons recommended for each.  Sure, the delivery system may (will?) fail but I assume the valves to the distribution system would then be closed to save the water.  If that happens, I hope there's a plan to use the tank contents to fill smaller containers and send it where needed.  Anyway, a moot point due to Clint's PUC comment above.

On another note, I was looking at using the Costco boxes with 6 one gallon jugs, and I noticed this article that says "Most grocery stores sell water in one or two gallon containers. These are not designed for long-term storage and will leak after six months."  Is this true of the Costco bottles, I've had no problems with mine in an unheated and uninsulated garage.

http://www.mygreathome.com/safety/earthquake_preparedness/water.htm

roynlorimoore

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« Reply #53 on: Dec 11, 08, 11:23:01 PM »
After reading all of the posts regarding earthquakes, I decided to look at sites about earthquakes and found this particular piece of "info".  It can be found at www.quakeprediction.com.  Any opinions?     
 

 
Earthquakes likely to occur in
Los Angeles risk of 5.8+
December 16 = 89%
December 15 = 89%
December 14 = 87%
Los Angeles risk of 6.3+
December 13 = 87%
December 12 = 90%
December 11 = 95%
 San Francisco risk of 4.9
December 16 = 95%
December 15 = 92%
December 14 = 89%
San Francisco risk of 4.4
December 13 = 85%
December 12 = 85%
December 11 = 88%
 

Earthquake Prediction Video CBS13 Earthquake Interview
Earthquake Finder Earthquake Research

Los Angeles Earthquake Prediction San Francisco Quake Prediction
The Great American Shakeout Totally Free Dating Site 
Metaphor and Simile Examples Free Career Test
 
     


 

 

 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 

 

kew

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« Reply #54 on: Dec 12, 08, 09:49:52 AM »
If you predict an earthquake each and every day, sooner or later you're bound to be right. When you look at their methods for making predictions, you will see that they are using mostly legions and folklore.

You would  be better served to be prepared for "the big one" and then not worry about it.


I am not associated with the USGS.
I do not work with the USGS.
# Quakeprediction.com We use many methods to come up with our final forecast. Here are a few listed below; Moon phases
# Animal behaviour
# Human behaviour
# Micro earthquakes
# Seismic gaps
# Thermal temperature changes
# Satellite earthquake clouds
# ULF or Ultra Low Frequency sounds
# Water temperature changes
# Steam emissions
# Magnetic field changes
# Radon gas release
# Well water changes
# Animals can detect the P-wave or ultrasonic wave generated by a big underground explosion or the rupture of an earthquake, even if the waves are too small for humans' senses. These waves travel faster than the S-wave earthquake wave that most strongly shakes the ground and causes the most damage. When this happens, animals can detect the incoming earthquake wave, and start behaving agitatedly or nervously, the same way a human would behave if they heard a loud explosion right outside their house.
# Some people believe that in this way animals sense the immediate onset of earthquakes. In support of this claim, instances are cited when people have witnessed flight of animals just before an earthquake disaster. In fact, according to the Chief conservator of forests for Tamilnadu, a few minutes before the killer tsunami waves generated by an underwater earthquake hit the Indian coastline in December 2004, a 500-strong herd of blackbucks rushed away from the coastal areas to the safety of a nearby hilltop. Since the beginning of recorded history, observations of unusual animal behavior before earthquakes have been recorded by people from almost all civilizations. The Chinese began a systematic study of this unusual animal behavior and in December 1974 predicted a major earthquake that did, in fact, occur in February 1975. But skeptics claim to debunk nearly all such observations. In fact, the 1975 prediction relied most heavily on a series of strong foreshocks. The animal behavior reports are often ambiguous and not consistently observed. There is little evidence for animals being able to sense impending earthquakes, although it is likely they can sense the initial, weaker P-waves before people. Seismometers remain much more sensitive than even the animals, however.
# In folklore, some animals have had more reports of being able to predict quakes than others. Likely: Dogs, cats, chickens and other smaller animals. There have been reports with elephants, too. Unlikely: Goats, horses, cows, and larger animals.
# Japan has a long tradition associating catfish with earthquake prediction. From this idea emerged a long university research programme concluding in 2004 in which it was proposed that the (established) high sensitivity of catfish to electric fields was involved in detecting fields of a few hertz because of piezoelectric effects on deeply buried quartz crystals. Actual monitoring of catfish and correlation with earthquakes gave results that are not promising.
# Source of data At Quakeprediction.com we have also found that animal behaviour is very important when working with earthquake prediction. This is not the only tool we use when making our forecasts, but it is a vital part of our earthquake forecasting model.
# Quakeprediction.com was officially opened online at 4:15pm - May 24th 2006, 100 years after the April 18th 1906 earthquake in San Francisco.
http://www.quakeprediction.com/Earthquake%20Research.html

Offline Cheinne

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« Reply #55 on: Feb 20, 09, 06:52:41 PM »
I have a 55 gallon barrel for water along with other backup containers but wanted additional water storage...I found this company from a friend and ordered. They assure my that it's fine in heat and cold, but that the containers should be out of the sun or covered. They seem to be the solution I was looking for and the watersafes come with a siphon and hose attached. The price for the large watersafe seemed reasonable to me.
I also bought the chlorine dioxide to purify water.

http://www.mywatersafe.com/

Offline BikingBrian

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« Reply #56 on: May 10, 09, 10:06:38 PM »
I was talking with the folks who had the water storage drums on display this weekend, and it was mentioned that they wanted to get about 5,000 of those 55 gallon drums out in the community. 

<rant on> I still stand by my earlier statements that if that much water is really needed, then the real issue is we need more storage as part of the town water system.  But since the reality is that the powers that be aren't going to provide more storage, I agree that getting as many drums out into the community is a good thing.  <rant off>

Anyway, now I'm working on the practical issue of where to put the drum.  I don't really want to put it next to the house or in/next to the garage.

The shed is a possibility.  The shed floor is made of 2x4s which sit on a few 4x6s which are anchored to concrete pier blocks.  If I put the drum on a part of the shed floor that's above a 4x6 it should support the weight.  But I have no idea how deep the piers are buried, so I don't know how the shed would do in an earthquake.

So my latest thinking is to keep it away from structures, perhaps next to a tree, in a small plastic shed or other enclosure to protect it from damage and sunlight.  (That has the other advantage that I can put the drum near the highest part of the property, which will make it easier to use the old water for plants and trees when it's time to refill the drum.)  Lowes has a Rubbermaid Vertical Storage Shed which looked promising, but it wasn't quite deep enough for a drum.  Of course I could go with a bigger shed, but then the cost goes up too.  I've thought of making walls and a roof out of plywood, letting the drum sit on the dirt, and securing it all to a tree.  Any other ideas?

Offline Bob C

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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 09, 06:03:24 AM »
<rant on> I still stand by my earlier statements that if that much water is really needed, then the real issue is we need more storage as part of the town water system.  But since the reality is that the powers that be aren't going to provide more storage, I agree that getting as many drums out into the community is a good thing.  <rant off>

In a major event, its possible that water mains could be broken, pumps might not be able to be operated, or the tanks themselves could be damaged. If that happens, it doesn't matter how much storage capacity the water company has, if they can't deliver the water to our homes. In my opinion, that's the reason to have your own personal supply.

Offline Mikeswave

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« Reply #58 on: May 11, 09, 06:21:35 AM »
Just remember water is 8.34lbs per gal. 55gals is 459lbs so you need to spread that weight out in a storage shed

Offline BikingBrian

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« Reply #59 on: May 11, 09, 06:32:15 AM »
In a major event, its possible that water mains could be broken, pumps might not be able to be operated, or the tanks themselves could be damaged. If that happens, it doesn't matter how much storage capacity the water company has, if they can't deliver the water to our homes. In my opinion, that's the reason to have your own personal supply.

Good points, although I wasn't thinking that more water storage would eliminate the need to have a personal supply, but perhaps reduce the amount that each household needs to keep.  I was thinking that we could drive to the tank and fill containers if the delivery system was broken, but perhaps it might not be possible to cross the washes to get to the tank.  Ok, sorry to be a stick in the mud on this!   ;D

Anyway, I'm thinking of making my own enclosure with cement blocks to keep the drum off the ground, plywood walls/roof, and strap/bolt it all to a big tree so that it's not going anywhere.