Wrightwood Economic Disaster Awareness/Preparedness

[lagomorphmom]

Each bullet potentially "represents a dead American," wrote retired Maj. Gen. Jerry Curry, an Army vet.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp <--- this is for John 

Evidently the good Maj. Gen. did not require his personnel to practice on the range.... And yes, you need more than six rounds to practice and yes, you need the same exact rounds in practice as you use in the field.

From Snopes:
"Origins:   An August 2012 Infowars.com post pointed to a Request for Quote (RFQ) issued by the Social Security Administration (SSA) for the purchase of 174,000 rounds of ".357 Sig 125 grain bonded jacketed hollow point pistol ammunition." The article opined that as the ammunition was to be sent to a number of major cities around the U.S., it was "not outlandish to suggest that the Social Security Administration is purchasing the bullets as part of preparations for civil unrest."

In fact, the spreadsheet showing the destination locations of the ammunition to be purchased by the SSA indicated that it was for "duty carry" purposes and was being procured for Field Division locations of the Office of Investigations (OI), part of the SSA's Office of the Inspector General (OIG). The OI "conducts and coordinates investigative activity related to fraud, waste, abuse, and mismanagement in Social Security Administration programs and operations" and "conducts joint investigations with other Federal, State and local law enforcement agencies."

The OIG's Office of External Relations posted a notice explaining that the reason behind the ammunition procurement was to supply the nearly 300 special agents who work for the OIG and are armed while on duty:
Our office has criminal investigators, or special agents, who are responsible for investigating violations of the laws that govern SSA's programs. Currently, about 295 special agents and supervisory special agents work in 66 offices across the United States. These investigators have full law enforcement authority, including executing search warrants and making arrests.

Our investigators are similar to your State or local police officers. They use traditional investigative techniques, and they are armed when on official duty.

Media reports expressed concerns over the type of ammunition ordered. In fact, this type of ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies. OIG's special agents use this ammunition during their mandatory quarterly firearms qualifications and other training sessions, to ensure agent and public safety. Additionally, the ammunition our agents use is the same type used at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

Our special agents need to be armed and trained appropriately. They not only investigate allegations of Social Security fraud, but they also are called to respond to threats against Social Security offices, employees, and customers.

A similar invitation for bids to supply 46,000 rounds of hollow point bullets along with 500 paper targets was issued by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). That ammunition is destined for the NOAA's National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS), which is tasked with protecting fish stocks from depletion, marine mammals from extinction, the livelihoods of commercial fishers, the hobbies of recreational fishers, and the health of seafood consumers." NOAA spokesman Scott Smullen stated that the ammunition is "standard issue for many law enforcement agencies, and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement agents in their twice annual target qualifications and training."

Last updated:   16 August 2012 "

[tcaarabians]

And, a cheery note here... if you google "debt ceiling 2013" you will see the stories just now being posted about the House voting today for a bill that will extend this crisis for a few more months. Lots of analysis coming our way shortly. I'm going to bet that not one of them will tell us whether there will be a run on Jenson's.  But, it is looking like we have a few more months to toss this one around.

The phrase "total paralysis of the federal government" did jump out at me.. should the debt ceiling not be raised in March. This, I imagine, is as opposed to what many have felt was major paralysis of our government in recent years. Yet, stuff gets done. All to the good.

I do remember my Grandma telling me about how the neighbors chipped in during the depression to pay a neighbor to shovel the snow on their sidewalks because he had lost his job.  And, about the Victory Gardens.. and the rationing during WW2. I'm guessing that is why I actually still have rubber bands that she saved and some soap and towels from back then. Mom was the same way.. she never threw away a paper bag. So, you learn to conserve.. in good times or bad.. you conserve.. because your bad times may have nothing to do with an earthquake or a flood.. or the debt ceiling.

But, hey.. it seems like we may have a few months to beat this horse.. so, let the debate continue. cheryl o7o 

[InTheWood]

Seems to me that the "economic collapse" wouldn't be due to not extending the debt limit. Rather such an event (example Greece) would be due to continuing to raise the debt obligations of our country to the point that it would be difficult to pay back. At that point, (we may be there) fewer investors would want to buy our debt.

If investors don't want to buy our debt, we would either have to raise the interest rate we offered to pay, which would impact the costs of doing business, future mortgage rates, credit card rates etc. or we would have to work some accounting magic.

Currently the Federal reserve is buying most of the debt of the US. This keeps interest rates low but has potential inflationary impact down the road.

If this continues, either interest rates skyrocket, or we experience very significant inflation.

It is one of these scenarios that seems most likely to bring about an economic collapse. At least that is how it seems to me.

[dreamcatcher]

I've been hearing bits about an economic collapse in our future and to expect a "bank holiday" if and when that happens.  You won't be able to get any of your money out of a bank or even use the ATM machine. 

This is the latest I've seen just yesterday:

http://www.naturalnews.com/038782_self-sufficiency_collapse_preparedness.html

[tcaarabians]

Well first and foremost.. Lagomorph should not read that link. Raising rabbits for food.. would not be something she wants to read.

That link does have some great 'survival' tips. If you want to go there .. go there. If it makes you feel better.. good. I actually do a number of them for my earthquake prep. The tips have nothing to do with what may or may not happen if the debt isn't raised. The tips are survivalist tips. And, they're great tips if you want to go there.

I guess we should back up a bit and decide what the difference is between "a fiscal cliff' and "a debt ceiling crisis." Oh, technically likely nothing. Sort of seems to me that they're great terms for media bites.. but the impact could be the same. You say pahtuhto,, I say potaaato.. you say cliff.. I say ceiling.. etc.

As for a bank holiday.. I do recall my Grandma telling me that the day before the collapse in 1929 her brother called her and told her to take all of her money out of the bank. I  think he was either a banker or CPA in NYC. Anyway, she did. I guess he had some 411. Grandma was happy that she did that.

And, the banks all closed as did everything in this country after 9/11. Then they opened again.  So, once again I ask: what will the impact truly be? Once we know that we can discuss what to do and how to help our most vulnerable community members and ourselves.

So, if anyone wants to stock up a little on the chow mein at Jensen's for me.. will barter if push comes to shove.  cheryl o7o

[MojaveSidecar]

Hi Cheryl

This was the first video I stumbled upon that woke me up to the economic issues/consequences we are now facing.

http://w3.newsmax.com/a/aftershockb/video47.cfm?promo_code=F847-1

I wound up buying this newsletter as well as newsletters and books from a variety of other economists and am still up to my ears wading my way through the material.

Some of the bigger discrepancies I see are between the Keynesian economists who believe the government should stimulate our way out of our problems versus the Austrian economists who believe in letting the free market economy and the ebb and flow of bubbles resolve our problems.

The other big debate is if we will have inflation or deflation... retreating salaries and property values are deflationary but rising food and energy prices are inflationary.   And to add to the confusion I have run into one set of economists who says we should sell gold because it has peeked and will go down in a deflation and another set who says we should buy gold because it will skyrocket because it's a hedge against inflation.

My goal over time is to put the info I am learning from all these points of view into my computer. I plan to track the various predictions to see if there is a clear trend/winner here.   

In any case, what happens to all the folks  who may be losing their jobs and eventually cannot pay their rents or mortgages....   where do they go?  In the past it has been to go on welfare, but what happens to these folks if welfare goes broke.  From what I read recently, most of the stimulus money went to the states who used it just to maintain the states' financial status quo, Given the debt crises, future state bailouts from the Fed may not be available.   If foreign investors stop buying our federal debt, and fed borrowing drys up, the only option left to the feds is the printing press...   which will just make things even worse. So hence the trend towards the next great depression.

A big difference between the 30's depression and the coming one is farms...    Farmers could mostly support themselves if required, I'm not so sure that is the case this time around, given we have much less agriculture.

The other issue is the scope of the problem...    unlike a local issue like Katrina or Sandy, this will hit the whole country simultaneously. In such a case, where would FEMA deploy its resources if a large percent of the population became homeless and hungry?   They most likely would not be able to come to us, we would have to go to them.  Hence the emerging rumors of FEMA trains and FEMA camps. 

I admit I still have a lot to educate myself about economics to try and get a handle on this stuff, However, all of the economists I've read seem to have one opinion in common...   things are going to get much worse before they get better...   and that's what is worrying me.

Time to crack open the next economics book...

[tcaarabians]

Mojave,

That video was fascinating. Unfortunately I wasn't able to watch it in its entirety. How long is it?  I'll plan the time to so. I now want to read his book.
And, I plan to send it to my son. He's already been dinged by Prop 30 which was retroactive. I just don't believe in retroactive taxes like 30 and the fire fee. How do you plan for that?

At any rate, thanks for bringing this discussion back to where its focus should be. Which, in my opinion, is what is the worst case scenario here and what should we plan for if it happens? I've read enough actuary reports to know.. they don't always get it right. I'd also like to see some reviews or articles on the book for different opinions.

In closing for now, I loved the pic of the cat with the tin foil hat. cheryl o7o

[Jirka]

O.K., so I watched just a few seconds of the video and I had all kinds of "yellow flags" going off in my head . . . did a Google search and found this article:
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/09/02/aftershock-finding-fortune-in-marketing-doom/
 "Want to make money in this market? Just predict the market is just going to get much, much worse. At least that's the very profitable tack the writers of a doom-and-gloom tome, Aftershock: Protect Yourself and Profit in the Next Global Financial Meltdown are taking . . . "

"All of this background doesn't mean the Wiedemers might not be correct that we're racing toward a financial catastrophe. . .  it's really more correctly proof of the power of marketing."

I would say prepare anyway . . .

[Jim Wilkins]

Pretty amazing just how we get our "education". 

I prefer to read a bit more main stream stuff on the economy....this just in from the NYTimes  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/business/daily-stock-market-activity.html?emc=na&_r=0   Paints a little bit different picture then the infomercial for the doom and gloom book. 

[tcaarabians]

Thanks for posting these. Both pieces are interesting and informative. Now, about my chow mein at Jensen's? cheryl o7o

[CrystalLake]

  I kind of like the idea of 22.4 million Southern Californiqa citizens cramming the freeways trying to get to Wrightwood. 

Thing is, all it would take to screw up Wrightwood's citizenship and civic infrastructure would be a couple of hundred highly motivated individuals with serious weapons who walk up bypassing the barricades, come the Zompocalype  I don't believe there is a significant ability for township defense without a National Guard component dispatched to protect -- and administer -- whatever potable drinking water Wrightwood has.

This whole economic mess, in my opinion, started with Richard Nixon with the abolishment of utilizing gold as a standard for script. Nixon's administration worked with OPEC and most notably with Saudi Arabia and Iraq, ensuring that all of the oil producing nations sell their oil in U.S. Dollars, thus inflating the Dollar and allowing the Federal Reserve -- a private commercial corporation -- to print as much script as they wished.

What happened was the establishment of the petro-Dollar as world currency which flows along the same avenues as cocaine, heroin, and some other contraband commodities. With Saddam Hessien a U.S. puppet following orders, with Saudi Arabia having ownership in considerable land property in the U.S., with Afghanistan being subdued by the Soviets, the petro-Dollar worked.

Then OPEC nations started divesting themselves of the U.S. Dollar. Saddam in Iraq stopped selling oil for U.S. Dollars which was the #1 reason why the Bush regime launched their war crime atrocities against the people of Iraq and eventually got past the Republican Guard, dismantled the infrastructure, and toppeled their own errant puppet dictator, installed a new puppet that restored the selling of oil for U.S. Dollars, only to find other oil producing countries are dropping the Dollar in defiance of the object lesson of Iraq.

Further weakening the petro-Dollar is the advent of non-petrolium energy sources which are emergent, the looting of the U.S. Treasury which conceivably has no gold left in any of the 3 supposed gold vaults tax payers are informed still exist (despite the refusal of the Bush/Obama regime to allow third-party audits) and the looming need to re-issue U.S. currency.

Which ain't gonna happen.  We're doomed. DOOMED! Best thing is to buy avocados, enjoy life while we've got it, and when the Zompocalypse arrives, die with much anger.

[TimG]

Then OPEC nations started divesting themselves of the U.S. Dollar. Saddam in Iraq stopped selling oil for U.S. Dollars which was the #1 reason why the Bush regime launched their war crime atrocities against the people of Iraq and eventually got past the Republican Guard, dismantled the infrastructure, and toppeled their own errant puppet dictator, installed a new puppet that restored the selling of oil for U.S. Dollars, only to find other oil producing countries are dropping the Dollar in defiance of the object lesson of Iraq.

Wow, it's always shocking to me to come across someone who actually gets it. 

USA's Petro Dollar Threatened by Gaddafi's Gold-for-Oil Plan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wha9lTKN7Zg

General Wesley Clark Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In Five Years
"Ten days after 9/11 ... we're going to take out Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and then finishing off, Iran."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXS7IsOdu-A

[tcaarabians]

Sheesh,, some of you guys just make me think and want to read more. If for no other reason, than to have a credible argument. So, there have been two presidents (FDR and Truman) that have inspected our gold reserves. I guess Ft. Knox has also held various historical documents ..like the Magna Carta, etc.. and no doubt.. Obama's birth certificate (that may also be held at the Federal Reserve another depository). Evidently, it does take a Presidential Order to inspect the various sites.  The fact that the Presidents  since Truman  haven't done so.. does not make me believe it isn't still there. Sorry, that argument doesn't hold for me. But, I'm open to discussion.

I cannot argue on point regarding the 'petro-dollar' vs the 'gold standard.' That is just a disclaimer.

I also just have to say here that I don't buy into the theory about 'seven countries.. " in the M.E. that we're going to topple (ala the Clark interview). Is it sort of like the "domino theory' in reverse or something? Those countries have been on the trigger-point of imploding forever. Do I think that our intelligence agencies have not been involved  .. well, golly, no I do not think that. I also think you can't light a fire without tinder. Would our country have been foolish to ignore what was happening across the M.E. and Africa? Well, I think we would have been foolish.Should we have played a role in supporting those that support our interests? Well, sure until history shows what idiots we were to support who we did.. as well as how many American lives and dollars were lost to do so. I do think WW2 is a whole different debate.

It hasn't just been in the M.E. that we put in or supported a "puppet" .. oh, a puppet that wound up pulling our strings.. look at Central America, look at Viet Nam.

So, back to the point:  (you guys are really good at tangents,, you just suck me right in).  Are we facing economic doom in the next few years? Man, I hope not. But, lettuce say we are for the sake of discussion.  What should we as individuals and a community do to insulate ourselves from that or just your everyday, run of the mill.. major earthquake?  cheryl o7o

[MojaveSidecar]

Hi Cheryl

Speaking of reading about all this stuff....  I guess I have gone crazy with researching in to this economic stuff.. and I hate economics... but what I am finding is fascinating.   (and I make absolutely no claim to being knowledgeable about this stuff. Its just my gut feeling that "something" is wrong" that is compelling me to do this). And what I am finding is scaring the you, know, what out of me.
 
There is so much out there, it is difficult to come to a conclusion yet....  and I have subscribed to a ton of financial/economic newsletters etc. with the hope that it would enlighten me... but in general ... the various opinions are like....... everybody has one.

However...  patterns are emerging.... and they seem to suggest....

Another crash/depression is eminent.

The cause is excessive "credit" expansion.... and we have the same "situation" with credit as Japan had in the 1990s.

There is a "huge" debate about if this crash will be inflationary or deflationary...   but the scope of the crash will match or exceed the depression of the 30s.

We havent had a deflationary event since the 30's...

Most traditional economists believe that a deflationary event can be "managed" by the fed... and backing up the fed would be the IMF.
Other economists believe that the fed/current federal leadership is "incompetent" and should receive a vote of "no confidence"

So OK...     the vast majority of the  financial pundits I have subscribed to all agree that a significant major depression is eminent.... on the scale of the 1930s depression.   But they are divided as to if it will be an inflationary or deflationary event.  And the problem is... how to prepare for this event is  completely different if it is inflationary or deflationary

We can get into this inflationary/deflationary debate in future posts...

In summary...    we need to rethink this thread... since it has exposed two concepts...  the first is... are we going to have an significant economic crash?   

And the second question is: Given a significant economic crash, how/what should Wrightwood do as a community to prepare/defend against such an event?

I'm sure that there will be future discussion about this topic but I want to detour into something I stumbled upon in my research.

I  just read a book,   "The Law" by Fredrick Bastiat and it floored me...   because it provides a view into the workings of what/why we seem to be so dysfunctional as a nation/economy today.   If everybody read this book, it would be easy to have a basis to talk about what we are experiencing as a society today...

I paid Liassez Fare  book club to get this book.... and I was blown away by it in terms of the clarity it prides into todays political/social/economic dis-function.   But just tonight, I found a free online version at the following link.  It should be "required" reading for every school kid, but that would violate the law of liberty. (it will take an hour or 2 to read... but if you care about this subject matter... it is worth it.   However the "heart" of the content is presented in the first half of the book)

Do you feel plundered? 

http://www.constitution.org/cmt/bastiat/the_law.html

[Mrs. Hillbilly]

Come on now people.  I've got bigger and heavier things to worry about! 
Like, is Beyonce going to lip sync at the Super Bowl this Sunday or not    

[tcaarabians]

PacFan:  You missed Beyonce's news conference yesterday. She's not going to lip sync. And, you know she can't because the entire media covering the game is going to be on her like a tick on a dead dog  in the sun. There just ain't nowhere to go. I hope she nails it. It is a very hard song to sing and many cannot sing it. I guess it is too late to change the National Anthem now.  And, I like it.. tho, I really cannot hit those notes. So, I try not to be too loud at ballgames.

Mojave: How about a few cliff notes on the book to get us off to a start? I get a crick in my neck if I read long pieces online.  And, I still have a crick from reading Tim's LeBon piece  he posted on the energy thread.

(Sidenote to posting links: How about those of us that post them also provide an overview as to why we're posting them? Just a thought.)

(Sidenote to the sidenote: Example.. it is not enough to say you thought it was instructive.. I would love to know why you thought that.)

Mojave: "Do I feel plundered"? Yes, I feel plundered when I pay bills. .. in particular .. bills from Verizon. cheryl o7o

[InTheWood]

High Level Abstract of "The Law"

Law is just and good only so long as it operates from the natural rights of the governed and in the interests of the governed.

Law is perverted when it operates from man's desire to extract from someone the benefits of their labor to use themselves or give to others to use.

Socialism is bad.

[tcaarabians]

Thanks InTheWood... You actually gave me a good laugh with your 'High Level Abstract.' Now, before we deteriorate into a discussion about the evils of socialism.. let us stay on course here.

The posit is that there will be an economic crash in our country .. many economists agree that will happen (evidently).. they just don't know yet if it will be inflationary or deflationary. Frankly that sounds to me like they're all over the map,, but ok. Since we're having a 'what if' discussion as to how to prepare for this and we're having it in the "Disaster Prep" thread we should focus our discussion on what to expect if either scenario plays out.

We could talk about how we as small Tri-Community could impact the policies in D.C. and the merits (or lack thereof) of the Fed or the IMF. I so don't want to go there.

What could the impacts be if a "conjectured crash" occurs? If it is inflationary we pay more for less. If it is deflationary we get less for more. Someone should explain the difference to me.  And, there is always that pesky 'civil unrest' issue lurking.  And, of course, there is always the question as to how long it will last so we can adequately plan for it.

But, since few seem to agree as to which direction it will take.. I can't see how they're going to predict the duration.

I guess we look at our own personal financial situation and think through for ourselves what makes the most sense for each of us as individuals. If you're on a fixed income, you may feel more pinched than you do already. If you rely on investments, you may see their worth drop. Course, we've kind of just gone through that. I guess the prognosis is that what we've just been through is a 'nothing burger.'  If you rely on government programs such as welfare, etc., those could be cut.  So, you look around and decide what you can do without. And, we all could likely do without a lot of what we think is important.

Back to civil unrest for a moment here. I don't believe that the Tri-Community would be subject to riots. Crime might go up. Course, crime has already gone up here. I'm going to make the sweeping guess that crime is mostly drug related, as in those that steal are stealing for money for drugs. Perhaps they steal to feed their children.. nahh I don't buy that.

So, I posit here that the major impact on us, aside from our own personal limitations, will be shortages. So, why don't we talk about how to plan for that? cheryl o7o

[InTheWood]

I always like to find a bit of humor where I can.

You know, rather than drilling down into the details of what causes a crash, it might be beneficial to "abstract" the crash scenario and think more about what the large-scale ramifications of a crash would be and how those could be dealt with given Wrightwood's location and geography.

It seems to me that the high level abstract of a crash scenario includes a major variable, and that is speed. In many crash scenarios the change happens overnight. For example a catastrophic economic crash, total devaluation of currency such that commerce ends save for barter. Or if you like to lean more towards the science fiction/speculative fiction side of things, a major Solar Flare or EMP causes massive disruption of the grid etc. Of course there is always the big one.

In these scenarios the disruption is rapid and you would have about three days or so before the food supplies in the cities would get thin. I think it was some Roman guy who noted that any city is three missed meals away from anarchy. In such scenarios you would need to act quickly to preserve the community.

1. Limit access points to reduce incoming refugees, probably have to guard the choke points.

2. Inventory empty cabins and consolidate supplies to prevent looting of empties. It seems anyone who owns property in Wrightwood would be welcomed back in and we don't want them coming home to an empty or trashed home. When they get back, the stuff they had could be returned to them. Failing that, post neighborhood watch guards 24 x 7 to prevent looting.

3. Post guards at the grocery story to prevent riot. I suspect Jensens would sell out in 4 hours. Anything left after the store is declared no longer functioning by management would be consolidated and inventoried. Jensens gets paid for everything after the crisis if possible.

4. Form neighborhood watches.


In a slow crash, like a depression, where supplies still move into the city and the water and sewage systems remain functional it is likely that the influx of refugees would be slow at first. It would be harder to recognize the point at which you change over from things as usual, manage the slide to an emergency that threatened the survival of the community.

I'm just speculating, and I remain optimistic. I think the slow crash is the most likely, if anything like this happens.

[MojaveSidecar]

Thanks InTheWood... You actually gave me a good laugh with your 'High Level Abstract.' Now, before we deteriorate into a discussion about the evils of socialism.. let us stay on course here.

.
.
.

So, I posit here that the major impact on us, aside from our own personal limitations, will be shortages. So, why don't we talk about how to plan for that? cheryl o7o

Still reading a lot like crazy...   but...

Excellent summary of "The Law" by IntheWood.   That book gives myriad examples of the misuse of the Law by government and its consequences and just about every perverse example of malpractice is in play by our current US government. 

Every government that has misused "the law" in the manner described in the book has collapsed because it converts free men into government "tax-slaves".   A 67% plunder rate on Phil Michaelson for example is  obscene,  immoral and incentive killing and eventually government killing as described in detail in the book.   One of the next things that I want to study in history is the lifecycle of how a socialistic regime lives and dies. Usually the dying part is not pretty.  i.e starvation, homelessness, riots, runs on supper markets and pharmacies, relocation camps, etc. 

The following "State of the Union" is one that you wont see in the popular press is here, but provides an update view of the decay of the law in the usa today.


http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/what-we-now-know

So given the growing dis-incentives of work because of the increasing "plunder" levels and the huge credit bubble overdue for a burst, my feeling is that an economic  crash is eminent.

SO...   to your point.  Regardless of the type of crash.. there will be shortages... which will last much longer than an earthquake or a forest fire event,  because the scope of the event will be nationwide, if not worldwide. There is not enough FEMA supplies to go around.

So one would think that the the storage of a 90 day or so supply of food would be good. However, one of the kinks here, is that our "kommander in chief" has signed some executive order that says in case of an emergency, he was the right to commander an individuals "resources" for the good of the people.   Which means anything you have prepped to prepare for this event can be confiscated.  (I'll provide a better reference about this later but I'm running out of time at the moment)

This would be a good place to start discussing how as a community we should respond.  Should one stock up on "heavy artillery" and be prepared to use it against the new gvmt brown shirts raiding an individual's resources... or  submit to the confiscation and starve to death.

Is pooling all resources of the community... in a "gvnmt approved" CERT type of storage system a better solution? Then who controls that resource  and how do we keep from falling in yet another "trap" "the Law" describes.

For community wide defense, should WW provide a "militia" of its citizens to guard the super-market, gas station, restaurants,  or step up road blocks to prevent "obvious" intruders into neighborhoods where they would have no reason to be in a crises.

Got to run now....  but after writing this so far,  it looks like we need more input into that "executive" order and what its impact would be on WW in case of martial law.