Vegetation Fire I15 - Blue Cut Fire - 2016

[3PinkRoses]

Thanks for the information on hot spots...I didn't not feel like it was too uncomfortable. But...I did think of something huge......   

Wait until we get our first real big SNOW....  Can you imagine the snow players? What a playground those hills are going to be!! It's going to be crazy, they'll be sledding on into our backyards with the sled runs they're going to make. But that's a topic for another thread. 

[Wrightwood]

[MerlinSilk]

Jim, can you please explain a Crown fire for me?

Here's a slide show of the some of the amazing fire storms that took place during the Blue Cut Fire.  Check out the ferocity and flame lengths from just brush and chaparral fuel models and imagine in your minds eye what a Crown fire through the timber in Wrightwood would look like and how fast it would move in three directions.  Would you really know when it was time to leave or better, would you have time to get out?

There's another series of photos you can click on to the right of the screen.

http://photos.sbsun.com/2016/08/blue-cut-fire-burning-thru-the-devore-pass-threatens-homes/?_ga=1.178228513.580892290.1470965299#1

[Wrightwood]

[Jim Wilkins]

Jim, can you please explain a Crown fire for me?

This visual shows you what happens when fire goes from the ground through the ladder fuel up into the trees.  It becomes a force of nature that sucks all the oxygen from the area and races forward in an effort to continue to have oxygen and fuel to feed itself.  By the way, cabins and improvements can provide the final ladder up into the tree tops.  There is fire from the ground to the tops of 120 foot trees.  They are impossible to fight simply because of the incredible energy being released. They will fuel the 30,000 foot Pryocumulus clouds you see over major fires.  Remember the Chaparral down in West Cajon Valley was putting up 100 foot flame fronts and heat in excess of 1500 degrees.

I'll try.  Here's a pretty cool graphic that says it all pretty succinctly.



Here's visual of what looking from Pine towards Lone Pine might look like.



Video of Crown fire near Grand Teton NP, I think
https://www.facebook.com/GrandTetonNPS/videos/1392351054112820/

Here is a fuel model with mixed fuel models trees....still a deadly condition.



Finally, an image from 1988 Yellowstone fire with today's growth behind the fellow holding the magazine.



Crown Fires sound like a thousand jet engines screaming in afterburner.  Being close to one is a terrifying experience.  Fighting it is futile.  Pretending you can survive anywhere near one is folly.

Hope that helps.

[Joe Schmoe]

Am I wrong, seems like with the good helicopter coverage of this fire I saw instances where the fire advanced somewhat slowly and without fury.  Not the entire fire at once, of course, but when passing through brush that was less dense.  Seems almost as if real progress could have been made if the fire was hit at these spots during one of these moments of weakness.  While these moments came and went, the air hardware might have been elsewhere, or the ground personnel were doing structure protection.  Do firefighters ever have the opportunity to experiment with different fighting techniques on fires?

[Nolena]

Jim, good post.
If you don't evacuate, and there is a crown fire, you will NOT have time to get out.
Crown fires are faster than you OR your car.
Burning to death can ruin your day.
Think about that next time you decide to stay.

[Jim Wilkins]

Am I wrong, seems like with the good helicopter coverage of this fire I saw instances where the fire advanced somewhat slowly and without fury.  Not the entire fire at once, of course, but when passing through brush that was less dense.  Seems almost as if real progress could have been made if the fire was hit at these spots during one of these moments of weakness.  While these moments came and went, the air hardware might have been elsewhere, or the ground personnel were doing structure protection.  Do firefighters ever have the opportunity to experiment with different fighting techniques on fires?

[/color]

Interesting point.You were watching the great feed from ABC7 telecopter who was hovering outside the TFR at around 10,000 feet with an amazing telephoto lens.  It's a marvelous tool to get a God's eye view of the incident.  I'm going to post the first hour or so of the fire in response to your question...because they do try to take advantage of those "moments of weakness" or create them by various means.

"Aug 16, 2016 Blue Cut Fire Time Line from Forum postings (Zero to 18,000 acres in 12 hours)

10:37 AM   Report of Fire   Location:   I15 S No / Kenwood Ave (CHP Log)
                 FIRE JUST STARTING TO BLAZE - TRANS TO SB COMM CENTER
10:52 AM   About 2 acres
10:49 AM   PER 75-152 1/4 MILE AWAY FROM FWY AT THIS POINT, OUT W/CAL FIRE NOW
10:53 AM   Full air response 2nd alarm
11:00 AM   Shut down Old Cajon - from Cleghorn to Kenwood
11:01 AM   3 helicopters and 4 air tankers in route
11:04 AM   Fire has potential to jump Old Cajon
11:05 AM   Reduce air tanker request to 2
11:06 AM   Fire is at 2 acres w/ fast rate of spread
11:13 AM   5 acres - heavy fuels
11:30 AM   Per IC - Initiate evacuation of Swarthout Canyon - fire has spotted
11:31 AM   IC - Close Swarthout between Cajon and Lone Pine - 7 air tankers on order
11:31 AM   PER FIRE - REQUESTING IMMEDIATE CLOSURE OF CAJON BTW SWARTHOUT CANYON AND LONE PINE
11:37 AM   FIRE JUMPED OVER TO SWARTHOUT/ HAVE CORDS SHUT DOWN CLEGHORN X CAJON
11:39 AM   Immediate threat to structures in (lower) Swarthout area
11:41 AM   Per IC - Shut down Lone Pine Caynon at Hwy 138
11:50 AM   3 additional type 1 helicopters - VLAT requested
11:51 AM   BluecutFire 300 acres
11:51 AM   IC requesting Hwy 138 shut down
11:56 Am   IC order gel task force
12:00 PM   Requesting full closure I15 north and south
12:02 PM   Per IC : Evacuations requested for West Cajon Valley
12:08 PM   mandatory evacs for West Cajon Valley Hwy 2 to I-15
12:18 PM   Channel 9 reporting 1,000 acres
12:47 PM   Hwy 138 closed from Hwy 2 to Summit Valley RD
12:49 PM   evacuations ordered for Lytle Creek
01:07 PM   estimated 1500 acres
01:30 PM   VLAT 910 on scene and just made it's first retardant drop"

Lots of moving parts and their were all moving in different directions and all at once.  The command post was alongside the old Cajon where the IC was looking at maps on the hood of his unit for the first couple hours, talking into his portable radio.  The IC made some quick decisions that saved lives in the first minutes of this fire that grew to 12,000 acres in 12 hours.  As the fire management gets a chance to get more resources in and a chance to fly the fire to see exactly what it is doing....what fuels it is burning through and will be going through in the immediate future, they will seek those moments of opportunity to go "DIRECT" against the fire when it is at it's weakest.  It might be a ridge top they think they can hold or an area with lots of rocky ground where fire might not take hold as well.  They can use hand crews....bull dozers....helicopters or aircraft or a combination there of.  They will only do it after weighing the what ifs regarding firefighter and civilian safety.  To your second question, yes there are Federal Experimental Centers and also civilian universities that experiment with better ways to put fire out.  They have a facility here on the Angeles and one in Missoula, Mt.  In Southern CA forests, the firefighters get plenty of practice year round.

[ForestGal]

Jim, thank you for that awesome post on explaining what a crown fire is.  I'm only a pharmacist, who had a pretty safe life in her career.  I know virtually nothing about fighting fires, except for a few things I've learned from my friend Nolena over the years.  In my mind's eye, I thought "crown fire" meant that the tops of the trees were burning.  This post from you was a real awakening.  And yes, I have evacuated the two times that were mandatory, in the 39 years I've lived in our beautiful community of Wrightwood. 

[Wrightwood]

[Joe Schmoe]

"Aug 16, 2016 Blue Cut Fire Time Line from Forum postings (Zero to 18,000 acres in 12 hours)

10:37 AM   Report of Fire   Location:   I15 S No / Kenwood Ave (CHP Log)
                 FIRE JUST STARTING TO BLAZE - TRANS TO SB COMM CENTER
10:52 AM   About 2 acres
10:49 AM   PER 75-152 1/4 MILE AWAY FROM FWY AT THIS POINT, OUT W/CAL FIRE NOW
10:53 AM   Full air response 2nd alarm
11:00 AM   Shut down Old Cajon - from Cleghorn to Kenwood
11:01 AM   3 helicopters and 4 air tankers in route
11:04 AM   Fire has potential to jump Old Cajon
11:05 AM   Reduce air tanker request to 2
11:06 AM   Fire is at 2 acres w/ fast rate of spread
11:13 AM   5 acres - heavy fuels
11:30 AM   Per IC - Initiate evacuation of Swarthout Canyon - fire has spotted
11:31 AM   IC - Close Swarthout between Cajon and Lone Pine - 7 air tankers on order
11:31 AM   PER FIRE - REQUESTING IMMEDIATE CLOSURE OF CAJON BTW SWARTHOUT CANYON AND LONE PINE
11:37 AM   FIRE JUMPED OVER TO SWARTHOUT/ HAVE CORDS SHUT DOWN CLEGHORN X CAJON
11:39 AM   Immediate threat to structures in (lower) Swarthout area

Thanks for the response.  Oh, now I understand the reference made earlier in the thread.  I doubt there's anyone here qualified to armchair quarterback such a decision, but after things have wrapped up do they gather to discuss the decision making process and learn from what happened and implement changes in process?  Perhaps the drought conditions have established a new norm that needs to be accounted for, even more than they currently are.  The one thing I will venture to throw out there is that I would expect to see a handful of ground personnel downwind of the incident to catch spots.  Is this done?  Seems like the area was road-accessible.  I'd also want to look REALLY closely at the origins of the spot fire really close to those cottonwoods.  People are down in the riverbed ALL THE TIME.

That said, the scope of the initial problem and it's likely origins is pretty clear on Google Maps: http://goo.gl/maps/EgSUVnumriw
Compare the location of those vehicles parked in the bushes with this photo from the 1st page of this thread.  100+ homes gone, history lost forever - thanks a lot losers.  I'd still take a close look at the spot fire origin.

[Leftfield]

After the 2009 fire storm that came up LPC, several fire breaks were bulldozed up and down LPC.   Of course they werent kept up because of "scarce" funds.  I wouldnt be surprised if Blue Cut fire cost millions to fight which also include the bulldozers....go figure.....

[AvocadoFlyer]

What vehicles were seen parked where the fire started?  Did anyone get pics of said vehicles?  Is this location known for something scuzzy or illicit? 

[Wrightwood]

Those dozer lines do not disappear. Many times during the Burned Area Emergency Response (BAER) process they seed dozer lines with native seed to discourage repeated ground disturbance and further invasive weed spread from ORV recreation/ activities.

After the 2009 fire storm that came up LPC, several fire breaks were bulldozed up and down LPC.   Of course they werent kept up because of "scarce" funds.  I wouldnt be surprised if Blue Cut fire cost millions to fight which also include the bulldozers....go figure.....

[Joe Schmoe]

What vehicles were seen parked where the fire started?  Did anyone get pics of said vehicles?  Is this location known for something scuzzy or illicit?

Vehicles are parked there every day.  Who would pay attention to that?  It's a known pickup spot for members of the gay community.  I try not to delve too deeply into finding out exactly what goes on, but I'm told "stuff" goes on in the bushes.  I'm pretty sure prostitution has taken place there as well.  On my commute through there I'd see regulars just about daily.

I went through Google Earth's historical imagery and didn't see anything similar to the vehicles shown in the link I provided earlier, so it must be a recent phenomenon.

Those dozer lines do not disappear.

True - if you look closely there is a clear old-appearing dozer line down one of the ridges on the south side of LPC.  I don't know it well enough to be the spot where they did the fuel modification, but it's evident that the fire was extremely hot there and the ridge is pretty well denuded with little to no variation on either side of the line.

[Jeremy]

What vehicles were seen parked where the fire started?  Did anyone get pics of said vehicles?  Is this location known for something scuzzy or illicit?

There are cars parked there all hours of the day, for what reason I have no clue

[Jim Wilkins]

The  men with the alternative life style started congregating off of old Cajon when they were thrown out of the Rest Stop on I-10 at Cherry about 18 years ago.    The open sexual activity there was non-stop (there were in my fire stations first due response area in Fontana) we would respond from 1-5 times a shift on medical aids to treat OD's-knife wounds and beatings.  CalTrans shut the rest stops down on both sides  and it's been closed ever since. 

They now congregate on a curve of Rte 66 in an old shaded rest area and camp ground.  The game plan is still the same.  Men meeting for casual connections.  There can be from 10-50 cars parked in the former (and very beautiful)  tree shaded area.  Lots of motor homes and lots of long haul truckers.  They have spilled over to Lost Lake as well.  I used to use the siren and air horn on the ambulance coming back from a call down there when I worked in Wrightwood just to see them scatter. I can only imagine an unknowing traveler pulling in there with the kids and dog to make lunch and rest for a spell ("Honey, take Junior and the Dog down to the creek that Google shows, I'll make lunch"). Periodically, the Sheriff and CHP will make a pass through there but they just reassemble the moment they leave.

It is not a place to break down or go out of curiosity.

[Joe Schmoe]

Before it was anything, it appears it was the weigh scales for the "new" at the time Route 66.  Note that even then, bulldozer lines (or maybe those were hand cut) were on the ridges and were old enough to be overgrown even then.  Some of the curbing you see still remains.  Also note how small the oaks were at that time.

[Joe Schmoe]

11:05 AM   Reduce air tanker request to 2

Was discussing this and something occurred to me.......I wonder if this was misinterpreted.  I bet someone here heard the radio but was this perhaps a call to reduce the air tanker request BY 2, not reduce the air tanker request TO 2?

[Wrightwood]

Many of the dozer lines have been there for decades and are reestablished during wildfires or fuel reduction projects.

In the past 10-12 years a lot of pre-fire planning and fuel modifications have taken place in Lone Pine Canyon and the Boundary Ridge area that's helped protect the communities of Wrightwood and Lytle Creek. 

The Lone Pine Canyon Fuel Reduction was completed 10 years ago, with the Boundary Ridge Fuel Reduction work mostly done in 2007. The Sheep Fire burned a good portion of Lone Pine Canyon Oct 3, 2009 and was stopped before entering the community of Wrightwood because of the dozer line put in at the base of Circle Mountain in conjunction with the Boundary Ridge Fuel Reduction project in the same area.


Lone Pine Canyon Fuel Reduction Project

Boundary Ridge Fuel Reduction Project

Sheep Fire Oct 3, 2009

Sharp Fire Aug 8, 2016