ol timers takes a look at the station fire

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

In relation to the important (and revealing) Station Fire Meeting yesterday:
 
Hotshots and crew bosses of the past reflected on what I share to them about the meeting. They allowed me to share some of the input. Be aware of this...we were all firefighters, our support will always go to the men and women who take up the tool and approach the fire line to address the devil that is coming their way. However, there are many of us that look with concern at the way the rear echelon-I.C. commanders are waging this important war.  Some scary comments have come out of spokesperson during the fire; the award winning one was, "We are just letting nature takes it course," (as they responded to questions regarding fire suppression activities). Most of us know the important of fire within the forest...but, we are all aware that the hotter the fire burns, the more damage to the watershed and soil occurs. The wrong use of fire (as a tool for fuel management) robs us of the valuable resources of a national forest for many years to come. Most Forest Service old timers that I've talked to agreed that true meaning of the mission of the forest Service no longer exist. the land and people will always suffer because of this.
 
Key past statements of the Station Fire
August 31st: "We are waiting for the fire to come to us."
Sept 01: "In questions regarding evacuations of certain fire crews-"Evacuation for safety was done because the fire came to us."
Sept. 2: "We are letting nature take its course (referring to fire spread, at the same time noting that the fire was "man caused.")
Sept. 3: 'The main objectives of the firefighters is to keep the fire west of Highway 39, east of Interstate 5 and Highway 14, south of 138, and north of the foothill communities meaning La Crescenta, Pasadena, Irwindale and so on."
 
Taking in consideration the above states, does that mean everything within this area is apt to be burned by the fire, cuz "its nature running it's course?"  Our concern is not saving ever bush and pine...but, it is concern for the massive destruction of our valuable watershed, and the damage caused by "nature" that come after that, through storms and erosion.
 
T. Graham
 
A couple of points from the perspective of someone who valued the Angeles.
 
1.  LA County takes the lead on the fire and devotes all the resources to protecting the front country:  Trees and bushes do not vote!!!!!
2.  Considering the last 3 years, the Angeles, from Highway 39, west to interstate 5 has been burnt.  That is half of the main part of the forest (excludes the old Saugus district).
3.  If the Forest Service is going to sacrifice the Angeles to the pressure of protecting the front country, is there a need for the Forest Service to provide fire control personnel on the Angeles?  Should they just contract with the County of LA for fire suppression?  This is  a rhetorical question.
4.  No one has discussed the implications of allowing 4 or 5 major river drainages to be destroyed by fire.  What happens to the following reservoirs during the winter rains:  Big Tujunga, Cogswell, Hansen Dam, Pacoima.  The winter following the Mill Creek fire, Bill Scribner's brother lost his life in a flash flood along the Big T, just down stream from Hidden Springs.  What about all the mud slides along the front country?  What are the economic costs of all this flooding and silt removal at the reservoirs vs.. the costs of protecting the homes in the front country?
5.  Fire suppression on the Angeles has never been about protecting bushes for their economic value, it has been about protecting the watershed for both water resources and flood control. 
6.  In the old days, and now I am sounding like the old man that I am becoming,  the county would have handled the front country, and the FS would have handled the Forest side under a unified command.  It appears in this fire, was managed as indicated by the quote below.  Much like Yellowstone, you attempt to correct 100 years of 100% fire suppression with 1 week of fire.
7.  LA City Fire Marshall has criticized the FS for not engaging in more fuel mod activities over the past years.   Public does not like fuel mod activities, they feel threaten by fire even in the winter.  AQMD does not like fire for what is does to air quality.  In order to burn in the basin, not only do you need the weather to cooperate, but you need AQMD approval.  Prescribed fire and the urban interface to not mix very well.
 
I think that the Forest Service, the County, and all the municipalities need to spend some time considering the role of the Angeles within the urban landscape and decide how best to protect both the forest and the urban sprawl:   Consider a buffer zone between housing and the forest, more strenuous brush clearance and flood control regulations and infrastructure, etc. Maybe 100 years from now your great grandchildren will not witness a 150,000 acre brush fire in their back yard.  But for the time being, all those that appreciated the Angeles must take solace from their memories, as the old Tujunga and Arroyo Districts are black ash.
 
Richard Amerian
 

[Keltnip]

Im not a firefighter nor a FS/NP employee, but I have lived in So Cal for 50 years and this is the first fire that I remember the comand staff taking the "we just want to keep it in the wild lands" attitude. Just another example of government ineptitude increasing to catastophic proportions. If they caught their shoe on fire they would have to have a committee study if they should put it out or not. Then come up with a ten point plan of which they would implement the "buy a new shoe" part of the plan but send the "put the fire out" portion back to committee for further study.

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

"Sit back an enjoy what is left of the forest," is the sad commentary said by many of the hotshots of yesteryear that I've talked with about the recent Station Fire. We wonder how people, who know next to nothing about the difference between good fire and bad, praise the way that the current fire is going. All of us older shots feel bad and embarrassed for today's crews, whose hand are tied...which is preventing them from doing the job that they all know that they need to do. We feel rotten for them. During their own private crew time, when they sip at their own beer, they're gonna ponder on the blackened forest in front of them and no doubt wish things were handled differently

All us old timer firefighters raise our cerveza and salute them old days and cast concerned eyes towards that massive big header from the Station fire that is still key-holing through what is left of the Angeles Forest. We remember the many classes we gone through to get our fire cards; watching side after slide of fire behavior, cutting practice line after practice line to get ready to address that fire behavior...and then being on many a fire fire. It was there in the heat and choking smoke that we learned how to turn a fire, use the lay of the land to stop it, and most importantly how to turn it into a direction where it could actually put itself out.  And we learned about the "Greater Good," the real reason behind being a forester and firefighter. 

Perhaps these days, those bosses that sit in an air-control fire camp trailer and plan the next move on a fire such as this one, forgot about the "Greater Good." Strange that they would...they, too, were once firefighters. Just in case they forgot, we who now share a drink and think of the old times, and the way things were done right, raise our bottle in solemn reminder to the present and future firefighter and their bosses; In the words of that 1st forest boss Clifford Pinchot about "practical forestry," we offer this reminder:

Next to the earth itself the forest is the most useful servant of man. Not only does it sustain and regulate the streams, moderate the winds, and beautify the land, but it also supplies wood, the most widely used of all materials. Its uses are numberless, and the demands which are made upon it by mankind are numberless also. It is essential to the well-being of mankind that these demands should be met. They must be met steadily, fully, and at the right time if the forest is to give its best service. The object of practical forestry is precisely to make the forest render its best service to man in such a way as to increase rather than to diminish its usefulness in the future.

When the Station Fire is done, what's gonna be left?

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

This interesting site was given to me by a hotshot friend:
http://www.thefurtrapper.com/forest_mismanagement.htm

[Cardinal]

Do me a favor.....limit your bashing until after the memorial for Ted Hall and Arnie Quinones next week. 

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

bashing isn't on the crews..........I was one for a decade. Read better

[Cardinal]

I read real good.  Statement stands.

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

Is was this time fifty-five years ago that a similar fire was started in the same area of the Station Fire. It was started by Bill Grader, who worked at the USFS Angeles Crest Engine Station. The arson fire was investigated by a deputy assigned to the L.A. County Sheriff's Office arson detail, John Graham, my dad. Grader, who used a paint brush as part of the incendiary device, was sent to prison. Perhaps someone should check and see if he's been released.

[GRAHAM_RANCH]

Old timer's speak out:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-station-fire-20100518,0,7290561.story

[GRAHAM_RANCH]