Adventure Pass Fee issues

[lagomorphmom]

I should say, just see above. The irritating thing about this article is the reporting of what people say, rather than fact checking themselves.

- Currently, Big Pines VIS is closed to the public due to lack of funds.
- ANF staffing is minimal at best. When we first started volunteer patrol/education in '06 or so there were exactly 2 (TWO) law enforcement officers in all of the Angles, from WW to Saugus.
- One thing the AP program provides, whether by purchase or fine (which by the way is still $5), is numbers for the @&@$#% bean counters for funding allocation - it is proof that X number of people used the forest. Most of the AP funds come back to the forest in which they were written rather than the general fund. So yes, it is a usage fee. If you lived in Montana would you want your many square miles of national forest personnel/infrastructure monies reallocated because L.A. had more people using and trashing theirs?
- We are lucky to still have access to the Fenner crews (at great discount) for forest trash removal, upkeep, brush clearance and infrastructure improvements (that almost went away this year by Calif.)
- Let's be practical. With the current budget deficit in Washington, can you really imagine these funds being replaced? This year the USFS budget was cut again. Think state Lotto which was supposed be extra monies to go to the schools - then less general funds when to the schools.
- The National/State Parks systems use an entrance fee whether you just drive around and never get out of the car or not - does anyone complain about that?
- And then there's the argument that "I only hiked through and didn't leave any trash". Did you use a trail? Who provided the trail upkeep? Whose engineers evaluate trail safety and oversee dozing and rebuilding of trails after they are washed out??? (I know, that same person is going to say, "well, I didn't use THAT trail".

- All of this for $5/day, $30/year or 2 AP for $35/year. Imagine if all of the court wrangling went to forest upkeep instead.

Here's your ANF fees at work report for 2011:
www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5395468.pdf

Here's the ANF fees at work report for 2010:
www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5347690.pdf

Here's the ANF fees at work report for 2009:
www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5347654.pdf

Here's the master link:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r5/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=fsbdev3_048946

[assilem]

[Joe Schmoe]

From the "I didn't see that coming" file.  The forest needs the funds.  The politicians need to get their act together and do the right thing.

[SkierBob]

What's the right thing?

[Leftfield]

Is a hiker any different than a millionaire cowboy using federal land for his cattle? 

[lagomorphmom]

Is a hiker any different than a millionaire cowboy using federal land for his cattle?

If the hiker eats off the forest and then gets sold for profit for meat, I would say no.

[Jim Wilkins]

What's the right thing?

The right thing is providing enough funding for the Forest Service, Park Service and the other land management agencies to just keep their heads above water instead of having billions of dollars of regular maintenance put on hold because there isn't enough money.  Forest Service is operating at 2002 staffing levels and budgets.  Our local forests are operating on shoestring and it shows in so many ways.  So many of the problems go right back to Congress, IMHO......

[RobertW]

No Adventure Pass Money, no toilet paper to put in the restrooms.  No Adventure Pass money, no trash bags to line the trash cans.  No Adventure Pass money, no paint to paint over graffiti.  All these things and much more is paid for soley by Adventure Pass money because Congress refuses to budget for these items.  Do you have any idea how many cases of toilet paper we go through in a month in just Area 38, Big Pines?

[SkierBob]

So Congress allows toilets to be built but won't provide money to maintain them?  That actually sounds pretty typical for Congress.

People need to learn to take their trash home with them but I know that will never happen.

[K9luvr]

So Congress allows toilets to be built but won't provide money to maintain them?  That actually sounds pretty typical for Congress.

You've hit on one of my pet peeves--congress is great on funding the "sexy-wexy" projects that get them press, but keep cutting funding for the basic infrastructure that is already built.  The last report I saw a few years ago stated that the "deferred maintenance" in both the Park Service and the Forest Service is in the billions of dollars.  We are slowly getting rid of infrastructure.  Three toilets were found to have crumbling asbestos roofing in one of our picnic areas.  Two of the toilets will be removed and one will be re-roofed.  We just can't afford to keep up what we have.  And, with lower budgets there are fewer people to clean the toilets, and they work less days in the season.  So, by getting rid of two toilets, we reduce the time in that particular picnic area.  I facetiously refer to "the incredible shrinking picnic areas."  We've gotten rid of toilets, picnic tables, etc.   

[Cheapskate]

Here's a thought:  the core mission of the National Park Service (NPS) is preservation AND sustainable public recreation/enjoyment...the iconic places like Yellowstone, Yosemite, Grand Canyon generate enough revenue to accomplish this.

Thus it is logical to conclude the NPS has no business in lesser places like the San Gabriels and the Mojave Desert.  There should be a limit to what the taxpayers will SUBSIDIZE.  And it seems there IS a limit and we've crossed it, that's why our edges are fraying.

For instance, look at Grassy Hollow visitor center/trailhead at Vincent Gap as an accountant would.  Aside from the fact that the buildings and amenities infra structure represent over $100k, ONE full-time staffer and maintenance supplies is at least $60k annually.  That's a whole lotta $5 day passes and $30 annual passes.  And there's no way one person can maintain all that, even if he's spending his time managing volunteers. Uhhh, can you say SUBSIDY?  Plus subsidized healthcare/Medicare...plus a social safety net for food and housing..plus national defense...

My accountant says I need to prioritize.

Protection accorded by the forest service --  USFS -- is different because the mission is different: set lands aside for preservation, not recreation.

Long term:  since revenue generating potential is laughably scant, amenities will be laughably similar.  We're going back to the 50s, free parking by the side of the road, unmaintained trails, litter will accumulate in a few dozen obvious spots near the road and all along the road, it will be cleared a few times per year by volunteers/convicts.

You may not like it...you may think as a society we should do better...but them's the economic facts.  With the best of intentions, through slow "mission creep" the federal government has over-extended itself, the decay we're witnessing is an appropriate "market correction".

[Joe Schmoe]

For instance, look at Grassy Hollow visitor center/trailhead at Vincent Gap as an accountant would.

Um, not in my United States, we will.  This is a country of optimism and growth.  Take your race to the bottom elsewhere.

the decay we're witnessing is an appropriate "market correction".

Self-destructive forces control the market.  There's nothing natural nor appropriate about it...assuming you discount the natural tendency of some powerful individuals to ignore the outcome of their greed.

[Cheapskate]

Nice slogans.  32 flags.

No evidence.

[Joe Schmoe]

Correct.  I'm singing the national anthem and you're busily looking for receipts.  You must be an accountant.  I can shout my opinion until I'm blue in the face and people like you will continue to shovel vitriol while our country descends.  Only difference is that your opinion and those who share it bring our country down.  I don't blame you, it's in your nature.  But the country can't afford to let you and your like take over the conversation.  You need to be marginalized like you were before the internet.

[Cheapskate]

Generally the person saying "people like you" and "you need to be marginalized" is the one shoveling the vitriol...

So, there's a deficiency in my nature.  Silly me, I just thought we disagreed.

One piece of common ground, though...we're both optimists.  The young people of this nation are poised to achieve great things, we just differ as to who and what are blocking their path...

[K9luvr]

[Cheapskate]

Thanks, that is illuminating.  It's "preservation" of a sort, I guess making sure industrial practices are sustainable.  However, I think it illustrates my point about "mission creep".  Federal govt providing recreational facilities is not part of the charter for lands designated as national forest.  But opening the door for regulated private-sector use (like Mt High) clearly is.

[K9luvr]

[Joe Schmoe]

Yep, we're creeping....backwards.

How is it not a violation of that act to not provide adequate funds to fulfill the goal of the act?  Or to allow the many previously developed and maintained parcels all over the National Forest to fall into disrepair, only to be permanently closed?  I see a lot of places that "used to be" and I'm only a casual visitor to the ANF.  I can only imagine all of the missing nooks and crannies FS employees know about. 

[Wrightwood]