Adventure Pass Fee issues

[RobertW]

We are not writing NRFs (Notice of Required Fees) for Non Adventure Pass compliance at Vincent Gap, Inspiration Point, etc., as we have better things to do than sit there and monitor who uses the "facilities". We are sticking to those who are using the campgrounds. We will have to wait and see as to whether the FS will appeal the ruling. 

I think we can all see where this is heading. It probably won't be too long before we will have to lock up all the restrooms and take out the trash cans due to the fact there will no longer be any monies available to maintain them.  It'll be back to the old days of bringing your own toilet paper, finding a tree in the Forest to relieve yourself and packing out whatever you bring in, just like the backpackers do.  With 13,000,000 people within an hour drive of the Angeles National Forest, it's going to get pretty messy.

[Jim Wilkins]

I agree with you 110%.  Sad to say, though, that ship has already left the dock.  When we have good snow weekends and the roads are parked gridlock from Wrightwood down to Valyermo and out to Vincent Gap, where do the 30,000 people deposit their 1.2 lbs of human waste and "Charmin" lilies.  There are only a handful of public restrooms in those areas but no one can get to them because of the gridlock.   A walk along any of our highways after a busy, gridlock weekend is a visual and olfactory experience that is less then pleasing.  It all goes back to the funding given the Forests from Washington. 

[SkierBob]

So do folks staying in campgrounds have to pay a campground fee and the adventure pass fee?

[Tomas]

The campgrounds that Robert W is referring to are first come first serve and only require an adventure pass for use.

[SkierBob]

Thanks for the clarification

[RobertW]

The campgrounds that Robert W is referring to are first come first serve and only require an adventure pass for use.

In the Big Pines area those campgrounds are: Apple Tree, Pevine, Blue Ridge, Guffy, Lupine, Big Rock, South Fork and Sycamore.  As Tomas said, those are first come, first serve and only require an Adventure Pass.  The Concessionaire campgrounds that are managed by American Land & Leisure have a fee per campsite ($20) and no additional fee or Adventure Pass is required. Those campgrounds are: Table Mountain, Lake, Mountain Oak and Jackson Flat.

[SkierBob]

I'm going to pull my trailer up to Table Mountain on of these nights.  Figure I will drop my trailer off at Table Mountain then go wine & dine in WW.

Does the USFS allow campfires at Table Mountain? 

[lagomorphmom]

In the Big Pines area those campgrounds are: Apple Tree, Pevine, Blue Ridge, Guffy, Lupine, Big Rock, South Fork and Sycamore.  As Tomas said, those are first come, first serve and only require an Adventure Pass.  The Concessionaire campgrounds that are managed by American Land & Leisure have a fee per campsite ($20) and no additional fee or Adventure Pass is required. Those campgrounds are: Table Mountain, Lake, Mountain Oak and Jackson Flat.

According to the A.L.L. website for Fees and Cancellations:
Details   Facility
Map   Site
List   Date Range
Availability   Visitor
Photos
Fees and Cancellation
Fee Information
Payment in full will be charged to your credit card upon completion of the reservation. A $9.00 non-refundable on line reservation fee may be charged for some facilities.

Payment Methods Accepted On-line:
Visa Mastercard Amex Discover UnionPay JCB

Changes and Cancellations
A $10.00 service fee will apply if you change or cancel your reservation. Late cancellations are subject to additional fees. For full details see NRRS Reservation Policy

Facility Rates*
Park Season    Site Type    Nightly/Daily Rates
Peak Season
May 09 2014 -
Sep 14 2014    STANDARD NONELECTRIC    $20.00-$40.00
MANAGEMENT    N/A
GROUP STANDARD NONELECTRIC    $80.00
GROUP SHELTER NONELECTRIC    $250.00
Walk In Season
Oct 27 2014 -
Nov 02 2014    STANDARD NONELECTRIC    $20.00-$40.00
MANAGEMENT    N/A
GROUP STANDARD NONELECTRIC    $80.00
GROUP SHELTER NONELECTRIC    $250.00

*Displayed rates do not reflect discounts, attribute fees (electrical hook-ups / water hook-ups), taxes or incremental charges
**Weekly rates may not be available for all sites

[lagomorphmom]

And as a separate reminder for all of the Angeles and SBNF

Don't Move Firewood: Protect California's forests from tree-killing pests by buying your firewood locally and burning it on-site. For more information visit firewood.ca.gov.

[Toolman]

I'm going to pull my trailer up to Table Mountain on of these nights.  Figure I will drop my trailer off at Table Mountain then go wine & dine in WW.

Does the USFS allow campfires at Table Mountain?

Yes they do Bob, in fact you can buy wood there as you enter to check into your space or bring up. You don't have to register on line either, you can just show up. Very seldom does it fill up completely.
I'll take you up on that burger when you come up. 

[RobertW]

[SkierBob]

Now that you mention it I will pass on the campfire.  I want no part of burning down the forest.  I'm usually ready for bed before the sunsets anyway. 

[RobertW]

[Joe Schmoe]

I wouldn't say anyone strong-armed anything, but the Forest Service's continued pursuit of the Adventure Pass program even when the first ruling made it clear to even people who weren't lawyers that subsequent attempts to require the fees wouldn't survive a legal challenge is just plain low.  Maybe it's desperation but they are edging themselves pretty close to a (another) real PR problem if they keep at it.  My opinion is that you wont get the funding you need if as an organization you continue to band-aid the problem.  Conditions will need get bad enough to be noticeable to the public.  Efforts need to be made to publicize the problem.  There's no doubt that permanent damage may be done...maybe even someone or some group will be injured...but like crosswalks and stop lights nothing gets done until someone gets hurt.

For some fee ideas, create an app.  Give me QR codes on all FS signs and place QR coded signage in campgrounds that links to donation sites.  Crowdsource rehab and maintenance projects.  Invite volunteers to more of the things like sheep and bald eagle counts - even do more counts than necessary, or count things that don't necessarily need counting just to get the word out and get people/kids involved.  Wi-fi in the biggest campgrounds?  Heresy?  Maybe, but if you want kids and people to visit that may help.  Why aren't call boxes wi-fi hot spots? 

[RobertW]

Unfortunately it would still come down to the same complaint by those making the most noise:  "Why should I donate money when I already pay taxes?"  Joe,  "Wifi in the largest campgrounds"?  You are too funny.    As if there are phone line hookups and electrical utilities running to the campgrounds in the forest.  It took years for them to finally get internet service to the Big Pines Ranger Station and in the end it had to be done with a Microwave antenna.

[daf]

How about a TP drive.  Send out press releases and see if we can get press coverage of a pile of TP being gathered in town.  Maybe that could shame those folks in Washington (if it is possible to shame them) into dipping into petty cash for some of these needs.

[lagomorphmom]

So, as I keep saying, if you don't like the Ad Pass, write your congressional representatives for appropriate funding and be part of the solution because there IS a funding problem and that's not going away. The whole point of the Ad Pass was to circumvent the problem of not enough funding from D.C. for Forests which are heavily impacted by urban sprawl. We have 17million people within one hour of the Angeles. Talk about not wanting to pay a fee when you already pay federal taxes, imagine how warm and fuzzy folks from oh, say the Dakota's feel about more of their federal taxes going to So. Cal. forests than their own. Or the city dweller that never hikes, why should he pay to maintain our forest amenities??? This type of logic has no end.

Secondly, I really don't think the folks that complain about $5/day, $30/yr or $35/yr for two really have any idea how poorly funded the USFS is in our local forests/districts. On the WW FB page people were complaining about bathrooms (and rightly so) and the "millions" the FS can't keep them clean. Well, "millions" need to go to a host of other necessary missions besides keeping the loo pretty. With regard to the toilets the problems are:
A) not with existing personnel but rather not having enough existing personnel and,
B) the excess maintenance people cause who can't seem to poop in the toilet and think it's funny to smear it on the walls let alone put TP in the toilets. Seriously. Which brings me to...
C) exactly how frequently do folks think the 1-2 personnel on our side of our Angeles NF Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District can get to every toilet in the district? They are only as clean as the last person left them.

As it is now, we do not have enough funding for a full-time employee at Big Pines which is a crime, it is a wonderful historic building that should be enjoyed by all.

Nor do most of the complainers realize or appreciate how much volunteers who step up to fill the void of lack of funding do. Bob can give a better list than I, but for example, one of our volunteers who has excellent building experience has been working on building improvements throughout our district. And let's not forget the time graffiti removal takes out of the week. Personnel are not cheap. Nor the trucks to by and maintain, the heavy equipment, paint and so on. It's more than just toilet paper.

Respectfully, before suggesting alternatives that are essentially the Ad Pass, a little research would be helpful. Not to sound to strident here because I know most of you want to help, but a chip-in bucket at trail heads, really? If people won't pay $5/day, $30/yr or $35/yr for two or think the forest should be free because they live in Wrightwood, they will still be too cheap to chip in to a voluntary bucket. And where will all these volunteers come from that will work 7days/week at all the various trail heads? There are no "gates" to the ANF unlike the Park Service. And beyond that, there's the whole system of trying to account for unknown amounts of money by who knows how many volunteers!!! I don't think so. The Ad Passes were numbered and monies accounted for. As volunteers, we never took Ad Pass money in the field for the accountability reason (pardon the pun) as well as possible harm from robbers and frankly, we like it that way.

If you'd like to learn more about the scope of problems faced by just our local Angeles NF, here's some facts and some links. I really encourage everyone to read more about OUR backyard and become part of the solution.

The 2012 and prior reports for the Ad Pass can be found here:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r5/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=stelprd3791132

ANF Recreation Program Fee (Adventure Pass) Accomplishment Report 2012
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3791110.pdf
Including:
- Removed over 240 tons of trash from recreation fee areas during high use periods in summer and fall months and over 10 tons from popular high elevation winter snow play areas. (Note, 2012 was a below average snow season).

- Also note that the Cost of Collections in the Angeles is very, very low compared to other forests.

Link to Apple/Android Apps for maps:
http://www.fs.fed.us/news/2013/releases/11/e-maps.shtml

[Joe Schmoe]

If the mayor of LA can propose cleaning the LA river for $1 Billion, the money exists to staff and maintain the forest for a good long time.  Efforts need to be made to upgrade sites in the forest so they can keep up with the times so you can keep young people interested.  You need advocates.  I see places withering away all over - Mt. Wilson (not necessarily FS property but I see it as closely related), Crystal Lake, any number of closed-off roads and campgrounds whose names are unknown to me.  Band-aids only allow the apathy from the funding source to continue.

Ya know, Palm Springs has a tram, maybe the ANF needs a.....................MONORAIL!

[RobertW]

Well said Kerin. Joe, unless you've been living in a cave everybody knows that congress is screwed up. They'd rather give millions of dollars to lobbyists to keep and maintain their jobs than put it where it is most needed. It will be a cold day in hell before they will put any funding into what American's thought was important back in the 40's, the National Forests.

[RobertW]

As a volunteer i've spent many, many hours painting over graffiti and cleaning restrooms. When Adventure Pass funding goes away there will be no more facilities. That's fine but don't complain when throughout the Forest you find people have crapped and left dirty diapers all over the place. If Congress refuses to fund the Forest Service the only option is to subsidize it with concessionaires. And we know how well that has worked at Little a Rock Dam. Just saying. Joe, you want to make a point? Come out and clean toilets with me. I like your thinking. You'd make a great USFS volunteer out of the Big Pines Station.