Author Topic: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood  (Read 1416131 times)

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Offline Ultimate Internet Access

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #780 on: Nov 17, 17, 01:23:20 PM »
Starting to splice Section 5 today.

2 to 3 weeks and it will be ready.

Regards,

--Wes

Offline Wrightwood

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #781 on: Nov 17, 17, 04:22:14 PM »

Offline AvocadoFlyer

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #782 on: Nov 22, 17, 07:23:48 PM »
Question, but how is the upcoming repeal of Net Neutrality going to affect our internet?  Honest question...trying to figure out if this is going to have an adverse effect on our streaming or basic internet with UIA.   Trying to wrap my head around this....

Offline lwt42

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #783 on: Nov 22, 17, 09:56:26 PM »
Question, but how is the upcoming repeal of Net Neutrality going to affect our internet?  Honest question...trying to figure out if this is going to have an adverse effect on our streaming or basic internet with UIA.   Trying to wrap my head around this....
This is a question that deserves pages of answer, and I'm not going to get into it at length, but....

Before I retired, I ran a small hosting company, and from 1995 until I retired around 2012, there was no formal "net neutrality."

I expect "business as usual" pretty much.

As I see it, the big question is, and always has been, bandwidth.  If something is using a disproportional amount of bandwidth, it has to be paid for.

The Net Neutrality rules made it harder for someone like UIA to do something about a customer who managed to actually use 1 gigabit, 24 hours per day, 7 days a week -- to the detriment of their other customers.

Before 2015, networks interconnected, and for the biggest players, did not charge if the traffic was balanced in/out.  If there was an imbalance, they usually came to a financial arrangement.

It gets ugly when you have someone like Comcast (who owns NBC) dealing with someone like Spectrum or Dish Network who is a customer and a direct competitor distributing video.  Net neutrality doesn't seem to address that, at least directly.

I think we're slightly better off with UIA because they don't do cable TV. 

I'll be interested to see what Wes has to say on this as well.

Offline AvocadoFlyer

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #784 on: Nov 22, 17, 10:33:22 PM »
Thanks lwt42.  Great insight.  I am hoping for "business as usual" but fear that the telecoms will do something sneaky which will cause all our subscriptions (netflix, hulu, etc) to skyrocket.

Offline lwt42

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #785 on: Nov 22, 17, 10:56:26 PM »
Thanks lwt42.  Great insight.  I am hoping for "business as usual" but fear that the telecoms will do something sneaky which will cause all our subscriptions (netflix, hulu, etc) to skyrocket.
Not that I think the issue exists in any meaningful way, one of the brilliant things about what UIA is doing is that he isn't leasing (copper) wires from Frontier -- not that I think they're like AT&T or Comcast. 

I know that at least part of UIA's bandwidth comes here via Microwave, not through a phone company.  Some may be through telecom, but not all of the eggs go through one basket.

At the end of the day, everyone who runs a network that is part of the Internet has to pay for their facilities, their maintenance/repair, their interconnections, etc. and then make a profit.  Someone might be able to do a money grab for a while, but sooner or later the other networks (out there) will find other ways to provide a great service at a low cost.

Improving technology drives bandwidth cost down, increasing usage (4K streaming, someday 8K streaming) drive usage up.  There will be price changes.  For Netflix, they use a lot of bandwidth, and they pay license fees to get their content.  I'm sure they'll have price increases, but no different than the last 5 or 10 years.

Offline Joe Schmoe

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #786 on: Nov 22, 17, 11:34:32 PM »
My opinion on the neutrality issue, and admittedly my belief in the nobility of advocating for consumers has been seriously eroded in the past 18 months, is that consumers are going to get what's coming to them.  You cannot continue to squeeze more and more bandwidth out of ISPs, continue to demand more for less money, cut the cord on your cableco/telco TV subscription revenue, pirate entertainment via Kodi devices and expect things to not reach a financial breaking point.  MONEY makes the machine work.  If you don't put money in, it will grind to a halt.  I look forward to households consisting of mom, dad and three kids running multiple streams of internet data being asked to pay more than I do at my piddly usage.  Why should I bear the burden of slower speeds and decreased availability as the result of your data gluttony?  I bet many in that category have a cell plan that that is usage based.  Get used to it.

Offline lwt42

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #787 on: Nov 23, 17, 01:14:32 AM »
My opinion on the neutrality issue, and admittedly my belief in the nobility of advocating for consumers has been seriously eroded in the past 18 months, is that consumers are going to get what's coming to them.  You cannot continue to squeeze more and more bandwidth out of ISPs, continue to demand more for less money, cut the cord on your cableco/telco TV subscription revenue, pirate entertainment via Kodi devices and expect things to not reach a financial breaking point.  MONEY makes the machine work.  If you don't put money in, it will grind to a halt.  I look forward to households consisting of mom, dad and three kids running multiple streams of internet data being asked to pay more than I do at my piddly usage.  Why should I bear the burden of slower speeds and decreased availability as the result of your data gluttony?  I bet many in that category have a cell plan that that is usage based.  Get used to it.
The odd thing is, that you kind of can squeeze more and more bandwidth out of ISPs, and it doesn't cost dramatically more to provide mega-fast bandwidth if you do it right.

In 1991, before the internet went commercial in a big way, NSFNET was "the" backbone, and it was upgraded to 45 megabits.  In 1995, NSFNET was basically turned off, and there was simply enough commercial capacity that no one noticed.

In the 1990's, I paid $500/month for 768k, up and down, low latency.  Soon I'll have 1,000,000k for $40/month.

That said, you should buy what you need at the best price you can get.

Frontier's current DSL service is an exception.  It's intuitively obvious that the connection from Wrightwood to Victorville is incredibly small compared to what they've sold here in town.  There is no reason for them to not add capacity, except that it costs money, and for a long time they've been the only game in town.  That's no longer true.

Offline Joe Schmoe

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #788 on: Nov 23, 17, 03:03:31 AM »
Technically that is the connection that VZ put in place, purchased by Frontier but it was VZ's choice given the demand at the time.  VZ even begrudgingly upgraded that connection only to have the added bandwidth consumed by folks who purchased new service or increased their speed package resulting in things going full circle back to where you started.  It's no secret that the world uses more bandwidth than before.  Web pages are now chock full if bandwidth hogging videos (both the content you intended to get AND video ads) and yet everyone thinks the dinosaur ISPs should be able to keep it going for $30-$40/month forever.  No phone revenue, no TV revenue, just $40/month per customer for an entire aging network whilst everyone consumes more and more data.  The nail in the coffin for Frontier in Wrightwood is UIA.  Frontier will n-e-v-e-r upgrade your connection now.  Even with the possibly new revenue source that killing net neutrality might bring it still wont be worth the investment.  You better hope UIA keeps you happy for a good long time and doesn't get sold to someone else. 

Offline Ultimate Internet Access

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #789 on: Nov 23, 17, 05:49:20 PM »
Quote
I'll be interested to see what Wes has to say on this as well.

Since I started the company in 1996 bandwidth prices have continued to drop dramatically. The technology has improved and allowed this level of efficiency gains due almost solely to Fiber.
Fiber just flat out enables tons and tons of bandwidth over the same "wire".

The reason it is dropping is that providers that support the backbone want my business and everyone else's. Competition is driving everything.
The big picture of how the Internet works on the backbone, and that is what we are talking about when we are talking Net Neutrality, the backbone.
What is missed by the reporting media is the what the "backbone" really is.
The backbone is really a bunch of what is called peering agreements between providers. Everyone is connected to everyone else.. there is no big provider somewhere that is providing bandwidth to everyone. it is just companies hooking their fiber together in different data centers.

Normally these peering agreements are pretty simple. One provider has a lot of customers and they would like to connect their customers directly to a provider that has lots of servers, NetFlix lets say..The agreements are such that both parties agree to maintain their expensive routers and to each pitch in on the costs for connecting their routers... they don't pay each other for bandwidth. Just for the maintenance and upkeep of the circuit going between them, usually in the same data center. Simple right? if you as a provider have lots of customers you want to a peer or directly connect to providers that have lots of servers or what is popular to your customers. The entire Internet is really a series of agreements to hook circuits together.

These peering agreements have existed since the Internet has been in existence. It works really well, as evidenced by the enormous scale of the Internet that has taken place in a very short time.

There are fights. One backbone provider (the kind of providers I buy bandwidth from) might try to really lowball some bandwidth pricing (HE, Cogent and so on) and try to take advantage of their peering partners by vastly over selling their peering points and saturating the connections. No big deal though, the peering partners tend to figure this out and throttle the connections to keep the abusers under control. This all happens without much fanfare unless you are a networking person working for one of these providers.

Net Neutrality was born of one of of these fights.

Verizon tried to take advantage of NetFlix. They saw that Netflix was driving something like 40% of their bandwidth. The network engineers understand this but the management at Verizon really has no clue and became outraged and saw an opportunity to charge Netflix and make some bucks from that. I say clueless because this kind of thing happens on the Internet all the time.. one has to be patient and see if balance over time. Verizon started to throttle and punish Netflix in an attempt to get money from them.. They weirdly thought that Netflix was getting a free ride on their circuits, instead of looking at it as a trend and realizing that people were actually signing up for their service due to NetFlix.

Net Neutrality was sold as consumer protection as if there was a monopoly forming somewhere on the Internet and everyone needed to be protected.

Never was true.

If it were true backbone bandwidth would become more expensive not less. It is becoming cheaper and cheaper and is driving for better Internet everywhere. Small companies like ours can now compete with anyone, including Verizon, Spectrum and so on.

The pro Net Neutrality argument echos the protectionist rationalizations of the early 1930's that got us to a phone company monopoly. Yes there really were hundred of phone companies in the US, hard as it is to imagine,  it was unregulated. It is not consumers that benefit from these "protections" it is large companies. Through this type of regulation they can make it very hard for a small company with a better idea to even get started. It is the large companies that want regulation, they just hide behind the altruism of "consumer protection".

I don't want these "protections", I want these big companies like Verizon to make these mistakes so I can take advantage of it and offer better service.

Regards,

--Wes













Offline Jirka

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #790 on: Nov 23, 17, 06:43:25 PM »
Wow, Wes. Thanks! Great info. *Like*

Offline Ultimate Internet Access

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #791 on: Nov 23, 17, 07:07:35 PM »
Quote
Why should I bear the burden of slower speeds and decreased availability as the result of your data gluttony?

What you are missing is that this has always been the case.
5% of the users consume 80% of the peak bandwidth. This has been the case for UIA since 1996. I tried and tried to figure out a way to limit these 5 percenters.. man did I try. We bought some reverse proxy servers that were really expensive in 2001 to cache out frequently viewed pages and therefore limit our upstream bandwidth, FAIL. The internet expanded at that time to millions of more pages and they became more dynamic so caching was pretty useless.
We tied cutting off the large users.. FAIL. More just took their place and it was demoralizing trying to control peoples usage this way. Finally I started to just look at it differently.. there was no status quo, the thing is growing and expanding beyond my tricks and anyones prediction.. time to embrace the suck and see what I can do about my upstream.

Ever since then I have been happy and well adjusted. I just work on building my upstream just in back of the bleeding edge. We are upgrading our circuit in WW for example to 5 Gigs..It also means upgrading to much more expensive routers, just all part of the suck - router is ready to go in fact. That should last a very good while.. but if not, my mind is ready. I will make a change.

Regards,

--Wes



Offline Ultimate Internet Access

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #792 on: Nov 23, 17, 07:12:45 PM »
Quote
Question, but how is the upcoming repeal of Net Neutrality going to affect our internet?  Honest question...trying to figure out if this is going to have an adverse effect on our streaming or basic internet with UIA.   Trying to wrap my head around this....

Nothing will change.

Netflix wants you, we want you to want Netflix.. We hate Kodi because it is a crap box and people want us to support this pile of .. , you will stream and stream and we will increase our bandwidth to accommodate.

Live will be good.

Regards,

--Wes



Offline lwt42

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #793 on: Nov 23, 17, 07:38:34 PM »
Net Neutrality was sold as consumer protection as if there was a monopoly forming somewhere on the Internet and everyone needed to be protected.

Never was true.

If it were true backbone bandwidth would become more expensive not less. It is becoming cheaper and cheaper and is driving for better Internet everywhere. Small companies like ours can now compete with anyone, including Verizon, Spectrum and so on.

The pro Net Neutrality argument echos the protectionist rationalizations of the early 1930's that got us to a phone company monopoly. Yes there really were hundred of phone companies in the US, hard as it is to imagine,  it was unregulated. It is not consumers that benefit from these "protections" it is large companies. Through this type of regulation they can make it very hard for a small company with a better idea to even get started. It is the large companies that want regulation, they just hide behind the altruism of "consumer protection".

I don't want these "protections", I want these big companies like Verizon to make these mistakes so I can take advantage of it and offer better service.

... and this is exactly why I'm hanging on with Frontier until you can install at my house in Section 5.

Spectrum doesn't get this.  I do.  It's incredibly awesome.

Offline AvocadoFlyer

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #794 on: Nov 23, 17, 08:14:33 PM »
Interesting!  Glad I broached the subject.  I'm getting informed which is a good thing!  A lot of it I still don't understand but the basic premise I believe I am starting to grasp.  Thanks!  Keep discussing!!!

Offline lwt42

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #795 on: Nov 23, 17, 08:32:48 PM »
Interesting!  Glad I broached the subject.  I'm getting informed which is a good thing!  A lot of it I still don't understand but the basic premise I believe I am starting to grasp.  Thanks!  Keep discussing!!!
This is fun stuff.  It's hard to wrap your head around the fact that we have this incredibly important resource and nobody is driving the bus. 

It's one of the few businesses where every time you sell something you make more of it, and the more you make, the more everyone can sell.

I've worked with and studied and made my income from this, and every time I read a post like the one from Wes, I learn more.

Offline Bob C

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #796 on: Nov 25, 17, 04:05:03 PM »
time to embrace the suck

Quote of the day! I love it

Offline Bob C

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #797 on: Dec 21, 17, 07:13:29 PM »
Section 5, your wait is almost over!

http://wrightwood.net/section-5-ready/

Offline Wrightwood

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #798 on: Dec 21, 17, 07:23:05 PM »

Offline momlori

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Re: 1 GB FIBER Coming Soon to Wrightwood
« Reply #799 on: Dec 21, 17, 08:21:36 PM »
What a great Christmas present. I have been waiting so long. Now to get that phone call/ email to schedule