Author Topic: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries  (Read 15408 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Chesslike

  • Guest
Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« on: Oct 18, 09, 05:06:45 PM »

Chesslike

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #1 on: Oct 18, 09, 05:10:22 PM »
Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats Part 2

"This is Toyota's Firestone," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. He was referring to the public relations disaster that hit Bridgestone/Firestone almost 10 years ago over defective tires that caused a series of fatal accidents.

"Right now," Kane said, "when you say sudden acceleration, Toyota is it."

In addition to Saylor and Lastrella, the San Diego crash killed Saylor's wife, Cleofe Lastrella, and their only child, 13-year-old daughter Mahala.

Signaling how seriously the company takes the incident, Toyota President Akio Toyoda made an apology this month while meeting with the Japanese news media.

"Customers bought our cars because they thought they were the safest," he said. "But now we have given them cause for grave concern. I can't begin to express my remorse."

One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits.

Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles has resulted in nine federal inquiries and investigations since 2000, two of which determined that there were improperly positioned floor mats. Another found a loose part in Sienna minivans, and yet another probe remains open. The rest were dismissed with no findings of equipment problems.

In most Toyota vehicles, the floor mats are held in place by two clips, which can come loose. Toyota offers a standard carpeted floor mat and an optional rubber version. Both mats have a cutout around the accelerator pedal. The vehicle driven by Saylor had a rubber floor mat, but Toyota said it was for a different model of Lexus.


Since the San Diego crash, Toyota has urged all its customers to remove their floor mats as an interim fix. But longer term, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said, the company is examining significant design changes.

One possible remedy is to redesign the accelerator pedal to make it harder to get caught by a floor mat, he said. Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.

Such fail-safes are needed, auto experts say, because sudden acceleration can cause drivers to panic, diminishing their ability to take swift action -- such as shutting off the engine or shifting into neutral.

If anybody should have known how to stop an out-of-control car, it was Saylor, who was trained in emergency and high-speed driving as a 19-year CHP veteran. But a close look at the Lexus ES 350 raises questions about whether the car's very design may have compromised Saylor's skills.

One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.

But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.

"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety.

The ES 350 Saylor was driving that day was a loaner provided to him by Bob Baker Lexus when he took his family's Lexus in for servicing. It's unclear whether Saylor's own car had the same feature or whether he was aware of the shutdown procedure. Bob Baker Lexus did not return calls.

That procedure is explained deep in the owners manual. In a text box labeled "! Caution," Toyota tells owners, "Do not touch the 'power' switch while driving." But under the warning it adds, "If you have to make an emergency stop, press and hold the 'power' switch for more than three seconds."

Lyons, the Toyota spokesman, said: "I think the text is valid. What I'd prefer it to say is to explain that you'll lose power assist [for] brakes and steering if you do so."

The shutdown procedure reflects a larger problem: As auto manufacturers adopt increasingly complex electronic features, it becomes more difficult to explain how they work, said Paul Green, a human factors expert at the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute. A study by the institute found that in some cases, owners manuals would have to run up to 1,000 pages to fully disclose everything.

"In the past, systems were pretty simple," Green said. "You put a key in the lock and turn it. Now we have a fob with functionality."

Chesslike

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #2 on: Oct 18, 09, 05:12:26 PM »

Chesslike

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #3 on: Oct 18, 09, 05:19:18 PM »
Since this Lexus accident occurred, I could not understand how a highly trained, veteran CHP officer could not stop his vehicle. Now it all makes sense. If this poor guy did not have a chance, it does not seem like the general public has much, if any, chance of stopping their runaway vehicle. So sad for the officer and his family and so terrifying to listen to the last few seconds of their lives.   

Katwest13

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #4 on: Oct 20, 09, 05:00:41 PM »
That poor, poor family.... :'( :'(

Chesslike

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #5 on: Oct 25, 09, 01:18:27 PM »

Offline Toolman

  • Raccoon
  • *****
  • Posts: 874
  • You can't fix stupid
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #6 on: Oct 25, 09, 03:42:22 PM »
Tragic event  :-\
 Even an experienced high stress control person such as a CHP officer or an experienced proffessional driver would have a tough time in those conditions.

 I had an accelerator stick once on one of my hot rods with over twice the Lexus HP rating, and it's not a good feeling. I pushed in the clutch, turned off the ignition and got it stopped.

 At 120mph your covering 176 ft. per second and a football field in just shy of 5 seconds. In a panic stop without for-warning it takes most drivers 2-3 seconds to depress the brake pedal. That doesn't seem like much but by that time, you've covered at least half of the football field. Something to consider when tail gating on the frwy. at 80 mph. or 117 fps.  ;)

Chesslike

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #7 on: Nov 09, 09, 06:51:54 AM »
Runaway Toyota cases ignored

Safety investigators dismissed numerous reports of sudden acceleration, then said data were lacking.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story?track=rss

Offline ChrisLynnet

  • Raccoon
  • *****
  • Posts: 1340
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #8 on: Nov 09, 09, 12:39:25 PM »
I couldn't understand this until I read that the car had a keyless ignition. I wouldn't have known how to turn it off either in a loaner car. What a nightmare, those poor people!

Offline lagomorphmom

  • Raccoon
  • *****
  • Posts: 1026
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #9 on: Nov 09, 09, 04:15:25 PM »
I couldn't understand this until I read that the car had a keyless ignition. I wouldn't have known how to turn it off either in a loaner car. What a nightmare, those poor people!

I won't be getting a new car soon (God willing) but I think that this is a feature that I will avoid, and, in retrospect, a poor idea to have in a loaner car.

cabindweller

  • Guest
Re: Toyota's Runaway-Car Worries
« Reply #10 on: Nov 09, 09, 10:29:39 PM »
I couldn't understand this until I read that the car had a keyless ignition. I wouldn't have known how to turn it off either in a loaner car. What a nightmare, those poor people!

From what I have heard, this doesn't seem to be a question of not knowing how to turn the car off - but rather not being able to. 

http://gawker.com/5399995/toyota-owners-share-their-stories-of-nearly-being-killed-by-their-cars

Some examples in this article (pulled from a survey the LA Times has running online now)

"3/30/2006 My Solara completely lost control while trying to brake.I did 2 complete 360s, hit a concrete wall and landed in a mud ditch.$10,000 dollars worth of damage and 3 weeks later the only thing Toyota told me that it was driver error. This car had a mind of it's own. -Janet Cobb"

"I work for a law firm and we have a case where 4 young adults were in Lexus and could not stop the care after it accelerated on the freeway, they ended up hitting the concrete bridge and the car burned up with all 4 people in it. All killed. -Patricia"

"i own a 2009 Toyota Venza and i just ran through a restuarant no one was hurt but it could have been worst my car just took off Toyota checked my car out and said thay could not find anything i am scared to drive it now. -JM"

eek!!!!  glad i have a Honda!!