Author Topic: Adventure Pass Fee Compliance program (Read 111116 times)

lagomorphmom · « **Reply #60 on:** Jun 05, 10, 03:13:25 PM »

Quote from: SkierBob on Jun 05, 10, 02:37:48 PM

I just read in the AV Press today and tomorrow Adventure passes are not required in the forest..

any truth to this?

Yes, in honor of National Trails:

Angeles National Forest - Welcome!

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/

K9luvr · « **Reply #61 on:** Jun 06, 10, 12:48:57 AM »

Yes, it is true. It is a "fee free day" nationwide in all national forests. Anyplace that has a recreation amenity fee (this excludes campgrounds) are free today. Veterans day is also historically a "fee free day"

RobertW · « **Reply #62 on:** Jun 17, 10, 07:38:52 PM »

RobertW · « **Reply #63 on:** Jun 17, 10, 07:41:06 PM »

This change in the Adventure Pass violation policy (from NNC to NRF) was posted a couple of weeks ago. It was pulled so as to await the change being made public on the Adventure Pass websites.

The websites have now been updated and the NNC is officially a thing of the past. Thus, we have reposted the information.

Bold italics in the above post are quotes from the website.

For more information click on the links in the above post.

Toolman · « **Reply #64 on:** Jun 17, 10, 09:58:04 PM »

The map included in Bob's post shows the boundaries of the area 12 recreationional fee usage area.

The new CFR code is not limited to area 12 alone, as this Federal change is nation wide where recreation fee's are required.

TooSlim · « **Reply #65 on:** Jul 14, 10, 03:33:27 AM »

This may be a dumb question, but I have a new truck and the rear view mirror is too wide to hang the pass on it. Therefore, I have to lay it on my dash. That will be okay, Right?

ForestGal · « **Reply #66 on:** Jul 14, 10, 03:43:19 AM »

Quote from: TooSlim on Jul 14, 10, 03:33:27 AM

This may be a dumb question, but I have a new truck and the rear view mirror is too wide to hang the pass on it. Therefore, I have to lay it on my dash. That will be okay, Right?

That's what I always do, anyway. If I have the sun shades in my windshield, which I always do if parked for very long, I make sure my pass is visible in front of the shade. Not a dumb question at all.

lagomorphmom · « **Reply #67 on:** Jul 14, 10, 03:19:26 PM »

Quote from: TooSlim on Jul 14, 10, 03:33:27 AM

This may be a dumb question, but I have a new truck and the rear view mirror is too wide to hang the pass on it. Therefore, I have to lay it on my dash. That will be okay, Right?

It is perfectly fine. However, if your truck is tall, it may be harder to see for short people like me. If so, and you set it in the dash vertically, that would help.

If you go out a lot, you might fashion a work around. For example, you might loop a ribbon around the mirror stem and hang the pass with something like the ever handy paper clip or something like that.

RobertW · « **Reply #68 on:** Jul 14, 10, 03:56:32 PM »

I've even seen people leave it on the Passenger seat. Not sure if they just set it down and forgot or what.

We go to great efforts, looking for the pass to make sure we don't miss it before writing the vehicle up. Having the Adventure Pass on the rear view mirror just makes it easier for us to see when we pull into a parking lot, like at Vincent Gap. We can see the pass without getting out of the vehicle. But many people leave it on the dash and that is fine.

Toolman · « **Reply #69 on:** Jul 14, 10, 04:19:06 PM »

I've come upon some displayed in the drivers side window stuck into the rubber seal. Not a bad idea when we're driving buy the turn outs along the road but I wonder how many have been lost inside the door when you hop in and roll the window down

Like Bob says, we do look everywhere possible before writing up the vehicle. Our first look is the mirror then the dash. An ID badge laniard is a good choice for hanging / display as long as we can see the expiration.

Joe Schmoe · « **Reply #70 on:** Jul 14, 10, 09:24:57 PM »

A little birdie told me that if you have a pass and forget it, there is a check box on the back of the citation to indicate you have a pass. Was that true? Is that still in effect? Are you still fined in that situation?

For any cynics, I *never* intend to forget the pass, but I'm not going to drive out of the middle of the forest to go get it...or even buy a secondary pass. When you have more than one car, it happens.

RobertW · « **Reply #71 on:** Jul 14, 10, 10:38:14 PM »

Quote from: Joe Schmoe on Jul 14, 10, 09:24:57 PM

A little birdie told me that if you have a pass and forget it, there is a check box on the back of the citation to indicate you have a pass. Was that true? Is that still in effect? Are you still fined in that situation?

For any cynics, I *never* intend to forget the pass, but I'm not going to drive out of the middle of the forest to go get it...or even buy a secondary pass. When you have more than one car, it happens.

On the old "NNC" form there was indeed a place to indicate that you have an Adventure Pass and could write the serial number on your Adventure Pass in the place provided, or you could mail in your daily pass with the NNC.

Unfortunately, there is no provision for that on the "Notice of Required Fee" form. After all, the violation (section 261.17 of the 36CFR code) is for "not legally displaying an Adventure Pass". It doesn't have anything to do with whether you have one or not.

On several occasions in the past I have NOT written an NNC when the person is there and tells me that he has an anual Pass but left it in the other car. I'll believe them and not make a big issue over it. I'm not out there to ruin their day.

Of course it isn't as if you have no recourse:

"If the Field Ranger missed seeing your pass, or left you a message stating that your pass was unreadable, please contact the Fee Program office at 909-382-2622, 2623 or 2618. A service representative will assist you in resolving the issue."

I suppose you could reason that since you left it at home or in the glove box, the Field Ranger just missed seeing your pass.

I'm not sure how flexible the "service representative" is under this new arrangement.

Surfer_Dude · « **Reply #72 on:** Dec 04, 10, 07:21:40 PM »

Quote from: Joe Schmoe on Jul 14, 10, 09:24:57 PM

A little birdie told me that if you have a pass and forget it, there is a check box on the back of the citation to indicate you have a pass. Was that true? Is that still in effect? Are you still fined in that situation?

For any cynics, I *never* intend to forget the pass, but I'm not going to drive out of the middle of the forest to go get it...or even buy a secondary pass. When you have more than one car, it happens.

They sure are on top of it out there...
I left my car for a sec, and bam...ticket. I have to remember to display that thing at all times.

FIGHT ON · « **Reply #73 on:** Dec 04, 10, 10:55:34 PM »

Quote from: Surfer_Dude on Dec 04, 10, 07:21:40 PM

They sure are on top of it out there...
I left my car for a sec, and bam...ticket. I have to remember to display that thing at all times.

They would make way more money busting all the people who are hiking in the closed areas.

RobertW · « **Reply #74 on:** Dec 15, 10, 12:04:46 AM »

Quote from: Surfer_Dude on Dec 04, 10, 07:21:40 PM

They sure are on top of it out there...
I left my car for a sec, and bam...ticket. I have to remember to display that thing at all times.

That would be the wise thing to do.

The budget for the forest will most likely be low this year, when it gets passed. This is due to fewer Adventure Passes being sold due to the Station Fire Closure. So the more Adventure Passes sold, the better for our Forest.

Unlike the NNCs which were back logged by months and months, I can assure you that I know first hand that the NRFs are being entered into the Federal database in a timely manner.

Be sure you pay the NRF. Basically, as the website mentions, if you receive a "Notice of Required Fee" for not displaying an Adventure Pass and do not send in the $5.00 in payment, you can be mailed a "Violation Notice" ($100 citation). Repeat offenders (those caught more than once without an Adventure Pass) are immediately subject to a "Violation Notice" ($100 citation plus court costs or handling fees) and fines can escalate after that.

With the NNC, if you forgot to display your pass but you had one, you could write the serial number in a spot provided or even mail in a daily pass with the violation. That is NOT the case with the new "Notice of Required Fee".

It doesn't matter if you HAVE a pass. The violation (261.17 of the 36CFR code) is for failure to Legally DISPLAY a pass.

BTW, you had to have been out of the car for more than a second, as we will not issue NRF violations to people who get out of their car momentarily, stretching their legs, enjoying the view, snapping pictures, using the restrooms, just sitting in their cars, etc.

Adventure Passes are for those that are actually recreating in the forest. See you on the hill!

RobertW · « **Reply #75 on:** Dec 15, 10, 12:08:51 AM »

Quote from: FIGHT ON on Dec 04, 10, 10:55:34 PM

They would make way more money busting all the people who are hiking in the closed areas.

FO... I can assure you that they are citing people that are using the closed areas of the forest. I hear them doing so on the USFS Radio all day long.

Andrew Fish (Non-motorized trails program manager) and Gerry Reponen (Assistant Recreation Officer for the LARRD) are trying to get more of the Forest open. Some of the main reasons for the closure are: 1)high risk of debris flow and 2) the increase of invasive plants from hikers bringing it in on their boots and clothes, where there is fertile soil. A full assessment needs to be done of the burn area and what needs to be done and what needs funding.

The budget looks like it will be less this year, whenever it gets passed. Part of the reason the budget is low is because less Adventure Passes are being sold. There continue to be surveys of the closed area of the forest but the surveys involve using a measuring wheel, and lots of paperwork, thus it takes time. Once there is a big rain, they have to withdraw from working in the burn area all together.

Andrew is trying to get volunteers from the LAARD side of the Angeles National Forest to work at the trailheads so as to educate the public about closures to forest users trying to get into closed areas.

K9luvr · « **Reply #76 on:** Dec 18, 10, 07:32:05 PM »

Quote from: FIGHT ON on Dec 04, 10, 10:55:34 PM

They would make way more money busting all the people who are hiking in the closed areas.

No, they wouldn't. Money from citations goes back to the general treasury. Money from REA programs (like the adventure pass) go back to the unit for which it was purchased from or for.

Elk · « **Reply #77 on:** Dec 08, 13, 01:12:44 AM »

Joe Schmoe · « **Reply #78 on:** Dec 08, 13, 02:01:43 AM »

A. I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that the Adventure Passes were illegal.
B. I also read that the Forest Service intended to continue enforcing the passes, which confused me until now - was their goal to ignore the Supreme Court ruling and just hope people wouldn't challenge citations in the courts? If so, that's low and makes me much less sympathetic to my next question.
C. Where in the plan do they intend to make up for the loss in funds? You might laugh at that question, but it shouldn't be a given that federal funding cannot cover the loss.

So here's the answer to one of my questions:

Quote

But because the case (the case I referenced above) originated in the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, the Pacific Southwest Region of the Forest Service did not institute changes

I'm no lawyer, but the verbiage in the ruling didn't specify the ruling only applied to a portion of the country. Though, I don't recall it specifically stated it should apply nationally either. I'm not liking the thinking behind that maneuver.

RobertW · « **Reply #79 on:** Dec 08, 13, 09:10:25 PM »

This is more complicated than most know. The ruling didn't apply to us here in the Angeles, but is under review and appeals and still in the courts. The situation in the Arizona Forest is quite different than ours here in the Angeles. I'm told that there, they were charging the fee just to access the Forest. We don't do that here in the Angeles. According the wording, we can still charge a "recreation fee" if people were using an area of the forest that included amenities provided by the Forest Service such as bathrooms, trash cans, benches, tables and information boards. As USFS Volunteers we have backed off issuing "NRFs" (Notice of Required Fees) in areas that don't include these amenities, even though they fall in the "Required Fee Recreation Areas".

You may have noticed benches and tables popping up in certain areas, so that we can continue to require an Adventure Pass. Adventure Passes are still required in non- concession campgrounds, at Vincent Gap, Jackson Lake, Arch Picnic Area, etc., because these amenities are provided. We quit writing NRFs for people just parked along the road such as Big Rock Creek, etc. It is still being debated in the courts and the Adventure Pass may go away all together.

The problem is that here in this forest the Adventure Pass funds ALL of the materials used in keeping these areas up, such as Toilet Paper, Trash Cans, Fire pits, BBQ stands, Trash liners, paint to cover over graffiti, etc. Congress does not provide for this in the budget, which they will have to do if the Adventure Pass goes away. That is one reason this bill to end the Adventure Pass is always put on the back burner and left for the next Congress to deal with, who then do the same.

If money is included in the budget to provide for these materials, I don't think anybody will care if the Adventure Pass goes away. I know when out on Patrol for the USFS, we have better things to do, but can you imagine the complaints when the bathrooms are locked up because we don't have money to buy toilet paper and the trash cans go away because we don't have money to buy the liners and graffiti is no longer dealt with because there is no money to buy the paint to cover it over?

People make the argument that "I pay taxes and so shouldn't have to pay another fee to recreate on public U.S. land". Good argument, but your tax dollars aren't showing up here in the forest to provide the things the public wants. That's the whole crux of the issue.

We will just see have to see what happens. Despite what people may think, we don't enjoy writing citations for Adventure Pass violations, but we do recognize the need to do so if we want to provide the amenities expected. That is why I don't have a problem buying an Adventure Pass every year, but then I see both sides of the issue.